p/islam

White Flag

Islam and pedophilia

Proof of God

The "Grooming Gangs" of UK, Islam & Pakistani Muslims

John 14:6

This is the sort of discussion I love ! You and Ibn Sina haha are bang on mate

Waiting for the atheists to respond to this by saying "it's not a proof, it's just a theory!"

Salam and thank you saar.  I place no time limits on questions.

Thank you for approaching this convo with calmness and respect. This approach is necessary for us to understand each other! I think others have clarified most or all of the issues that you brought up, and the PDF issue was thoroughly dissected and dismantled in the post about the topic. I've responded to it myself. I will address your concern about spreading Islam below. Instead of repeating what others have said, I'd like to address the core issue at hand. When it comes it animosity between Muslims and non-Muslims, I believe the core problems are misinformation, lack of information, propaganda, and an unwillingness to discuss and critique each other's views. I think an open-minded reader would have seen that happening in the other post about the PDF issue. Muslims have no issues answering tough questions about our religion. Especially in the West, we've become accustomed to the questions and situations they come with; in fact, we've had to become accustomed to it because of the constant pressure and attack by the institutions of the non-Muslim majority. Yes, to be fair, most of these institutions are Zionist-owned and run. Zionists have a vested interest in ensuring that Muslims are always seen as the enemy in the West and that whites and Christians sacrifice themselves physically, mentally, and financially for Zionism vis-a-vis the Greater Israel project. But the reason why the Zionists are able to control the West in this manner is because of the lack of criticality and skepticism on the part of Westerns towards the narratives they hear and see, and their beliefs, ideologies, and assumptions that underpin their thinking, and which are exploited by Zionists and the elite to spread said narratives and propaganda. If you're open to this kind of critique of the West, then I highly encourage you to read "Formations of the Secular" by Talal Asad (https://www.amazon.ca/Formations-Secular-Christianity-Islam-Modernity/dp/0804747687). Its a great book that really should be part of any discourse on secularism and common western beliefs such as human rights and democracy. **If people living in the West had more critical thinking, I believe we can come to understanding, agree on somethings, and agree to disagree on others.** Regarding your concerns about "Islamists wanting to take over the world," this is another one of those tropes and caricatures that are perpetuated in the media. Let me give you a summary about this topic from an Islamic point of view. We as Muslims are commanded by Allah to proselytize Islam so that the message of Islam reaches others. This is what "dawah" is, you've likely seen that term online. Dawah is an obligation upon every Muslim, but its not the kind of proseltyzation you might be thinking of where two Mormons or Christians come knocking on your door to preach. First, dawah is not just for non-Muslims, we are also to give dawah to Muslims as well by reminding them of the teachings of Islam and even teaching them things they didn't previously know. Second, dawah is largely given through words and speech, but is also given through one's actions and manners. As Muslims, we are representatives of Islam. No matter where we go, people will judge Islam by observing our actions and statements. You might say that this is not a good way to judge a belief system based on the actions of a few, and I agree with you on that, but the fact is many people judge Islam in that way. But we don't mind that :) We know that our manners and behaviors are the best, and we want to showcase them to others to the best of our ability. Third, our only job is to convey the message of Islam, not to convert; guidance is up to Allah and its not our choice who becomes Muslim and who doesn't. This is one of the most important aspects of dawah that Muslims have to remember because sometimes we get carried away and get excited when someone is interested in Islam so we start to press them more to convert. I'm guilty of this myself unfortunately. Fourth, the reason we do dawah is because we are commanded to do so, but also because we do want the best for people. We know with full conviction that the last messenger sent by Allah was the Messenger Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him, and that the last revelation is the Quran, and we know that there is an afterlife where people will be judged and will either enter enternal Paradise or eternal Hell. Knowing this, I want to help as many people as I can. I have concern for the Iman (firm belief) of others because that is what will bring them ultimate success. Of course we do get a personal benefit when we do dawah and if others accept Islam through us, but this benefit is good deeds (it's a big deal for us! More success and rewards in the Hereafter) but there is no material benefit. Its not like you pay me a fee for converting you or I get a bounty or something like that lol. Now do we have to take over the world to give dawah? Clearly not. The past two decades prove that. In fact, nowhere in our sources are we commanded to do such a thing. The Islamic perspective on conquest and warefare, like many of the affairs of this world (even science), is that they are purely utilitarian, meaning that they should only be done when necessary. We are commanded to NOT hope for battle with the enemy, but if it comes then to be patient and go forward without fear ([Riyad as-Salihin 1351](https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1351), [Riyad as-Salihin 1324](https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1324)). For example, suppose there was a nation properly ruled by Islamic law (sharia) that was based in the historically Muslim majority lands (no such nation exists currently, sadly), why would this Islamic country attack the USA across an ocean and a continent? Assuming of course the USA was not an aggressor. I would imagine that there would be adversarial relationship because such a hypothetical Islamic nation would likely aim to secure its interests in the region, but that's just geopolitics and international relations. Regarding what you wrote about what all humans want, yes I agree with you on all of those points except the last one, which is very broad. Islam preserves all of what you mentioned, and the scholars have identified 5 things which the sharia preserves and nurtures: iman (firm belief), life, intellect/mind, lineage/family, and wealth. Yes Islam does offer many freedoms, but its not the unlimited and unrealistic freedom that idealistic westerners talk about. Just to quickly mention somethings: Freedom of speech: Islam does not permit all speech. For example, insulting Allah, the angels, the revelation, the prophets and messengers, and one's parents, are all strictly prohibited and can in fact make one a disbeliver. Cursing the dieties/beliefs of others is also discouraged. Otherwise, most things are allowed such as criticizing and advising rulers and leaders. Cursing and using filthy language is not legally punishable under Islamic law but it is sinful (so still punishable but in the Hereafter). Freedom of expression: similarly to what I mentioned about freedom of speech. Naturally, if you can't say anything you want, then you can't express yourself in any way you want. Cross-dressing or even taking on part of the look of the opposite gender is not allowed (and of course, there are only two genders), among other things. Freedom of religion: this is an interesting one because the West claims to have freedom of religion but it does not allow full practice of Islam and other religions(why aren't Muslims allowed to have civil Sharia courts with full legal backing?); however under Islamic law, Jews and Christians would be allowed to have their own courts separate from Islamic courts with legal enforcement! So actually Islam allows more freedom of religion than the west in some cases! There are limitations of course: you cannot proselytize your religion in public (why would falsehood be allowed to run amok). You can worship freely as much as you want, in your home or at your place of worship. With that said, @logical I want to end off by inviting you to Islam!

Glad to see you back posting again.  I will try to come back and read over this some time.