Comment on White Flag by abdullah

abdullah · 3/2/2025, 4:29:23 PM · permalink

Thank you for approaching this convo with calmness and respect. This approach is necessary for us to understand each other!  
  
I think others have clarified most or all of the issues that you brought up, and the PDF issue was thoroughly dissected and dismantled in the post about the topic. I've responded to it myself. I will address your concern about spreading Islam below.  
  
Instead of repeating what others have said, I'd like to address the core issue at hand.  
  
When it comes it animosity between Muslims and non-Muslims, I believe the core problems are misinformation, lack of information, propaganda, and an unwillingness to discuss and critique each other's views. I think an open-minded reader would have seen that happening in the other post about the PDF issue.  
  
Muslims have no issues answering tough questions about our religion. Especially in the West, we've become accustomed to the questions and situations they come with; in fact, we've had to become accustomed to it because of the constant pressure and attack by the institutions of the non-Muslim majority. Yes, to be fair, most of these institutions are Zionist-owned and run. Zionists have a vested interest in ensuring that Muslims are always seen as the enemy in the West and that whites and Christians sacrifice themselves physically, mentally, and financially for Zionism vis-a-vis the Greater Israel project.  
  
But the reason why the Zionists are able to control the West in this manner is because of the lack of criticality and skepticism on the part of Westerns towards the narratives they hear and see, and their beliefs, ideologies, and assumptions that underpin their thinking, and which are exploited by Zionists and the elite to spread said narratives and propaganda.  
  
If you're open to this kind of critique of the West, then I highly encourage you to read "Formations of the Secular" by Talal Asad (https://www.amazon.ca/Formations-Secular-Christianity-Islam-Modernity/dp/0804747687). Its a great book that really should be part of any discourse on secularism and common western beliefs such as human rights and democracy.  
  
**If people living in the West had more critical thinking, I believe we can come to understanding, agree on somethings, and agree to disagree on others.**  
  
Regarding your concerns about "Islamists wanting to take over the world," this is another one of those tropes and caricatures that are perpetuated in the media. Let me give you a summary about this topic from an Islamic point of view.  
  
We as Muslims are commanded by Allah to proselytize Islam so that the message of Islam reaches others. This is what "dawah" is, you've likely seen that term online. Dawah is an obligation upon every Muslim, but its not the kind of proseltyzation you might be thinking of where two Mormons or Christians come knocking on your door to preach.  
  
First, dawah is not just for non-Muslims, we are also to give dawah to Muslims as well by reminding them of the teachings of Islam and even teaching them things they didn't previously know.  
  
Second, dawah is largely given through words and speech, but is also given through one's actions and manners. As Muslims, we are representatives of Islam. No matter where we go, people will judge Islam by observing our actions and statements. You might say that this is not a good way to judge a belief system based on the actions of a few, and I agree with you on that, but the fact is many people judge Islam in that way. But we don't mind that :) We know that our manners and behaviors are the best, and we want to showcase them to others to the best of our ability.  
  
Third, our only job is to convey the message of Islam, not to convert; guidance is up to Allah and its not our choice who becomes Muslim and who doesn't. This is one of the most important aspects of dawah that Muslims have to remember because sometimes we get carried away and get excited when someone is interested in Islam so we start to press them more to convert. I'm guilty of this myself unfortunately.  
  
Fourth, the reason we do dawah is because we are commanded to do so, but also because we do want the best for people. We know with full conviction that the last messenger sent by Allah was the Messenger Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him, and that the last revelation is the Quran, and we know that there is an afterlife where people will be judged and will either enter enternal Paradise or eternal Hell. Knowing this, I want to help as many people as I can. I have concern for the Iman (firm belief) of others because that is what will bring them ultimate success. Of course we do get a personal benefit when we do dawah and if others accept Islam through us, but this benefit is good deeds (it's a big deal for us! More success and rewards in the Hereafter) but there is no material benefit. Its not like you pay me a fee for converting you or I get a bounty or something like that lol.  
  
Now do we have to take over the world to give dawah? Clearly not. The past two decades prove that. In fact, nowhere in our sources are we commanded to do such a thing.  
  
The Islamic perspective on conquest and warefare, like many of the affairs of this world (even science), is that they are purely utilitarian, meaning that they should only be done when necessary. We are commanded to NOT hope for battle with the enemy, but if it comes then to be patient and go forward without fear ([Riyad as-Salihin 1351](https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1351), [Riyad as-Salihin 1324](https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1324)).  
  
For example, suppose there was a nation properly ruled by Islamic law (sharia) that was based in the historically Muslim majority lands (no such nation exists currently, sadly), why would this Islamic country attack the USA across an ocean and a continent? Assuming of course the USA was not an aggressor. I would imagine that there would be adversarial relationship because such a hypothetical Islamic nation would likely aim to secure its interests in the region, but that's just geopolitics and international relations.  
  
Regarding what you wrote about what all humans want, yes I agree with you on all of those points except the last one, which is very broad. Islam preserves all of what you mentioned, and the scholars have identified 5 things which the sharia preserves and nurtures: iman (firm belief), life, intellect/mind, lineage/family, and wealth.  
  
Yes Islam does offer many freedoms, but its not the unlimited and unrealistic freedom that idealistic westerners talk about. Just to quickly mention somethings:  
  
Freedom of speech: Islam does not permit all speech. For example, insulting Allah, the angels, the revelation, the prophets and messengers, and one's parents, are all strictly prohibited and can in fact make one a disbeliver. Cursing the dieties/beliefs of others is also discouraged. Otherwise, most things are allowed such as criticizing and advising rulers and leaders. Cursing and using filthy language is not legally punishable under Islamic law but it is sinful (so still punishable but in the Hereafter).  
  
Freedom of expression: similarly to what I mentioned about freedom of speech. Naturally, if you can't say anything you want, then you can't express yourself in any way you want. Cross-dressing or even taking on part of the look of the opposite gender is not allowed (and of course, there are only two genders), among other things.  
  
Freedom of religion: this is an interesting one because the West claims to have freedom of religion but it does not allow full practice of Islam and other religions(why aren't Muslims allowed to have civil Sharia courts with full legal backing?); however under Islamic law, Jews and Christians would be allowed to have their own courts separate from Islamic courts with legal enforcement! So actually Islam allows more freedom of religion than the west in some cases! There are limitations of course: you cannot proselytize your religion in public (why would falsehood be allowed to run amok). You can worship freely as much as you want, in your home or at your place of worship.  
  
With that said, @logical I want to end off by inviting you to Islam!

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booboolin · 3/2/2025, 5:31:10 PM · permalink

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q2025 · 3/2/2025, 6:51:34 PM · permalink

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booboolin · 3/2/2025, 8:31:48 PM · permalink

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q2025 · 3/3/2025, 2:17:59 AM · permalink

Most people would write a few reasons like it's beautiful and peaceful and give examples that fit human psychology on how volunteers are better than conscripts... but to be honest, we don't really know why God has ordained many things. We can only guess and try to gain an understanding.   
At this point, I should clarify that one very stark difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. In Islam God shows an obvious disdain for the clergy and asks people to explore and think for themselves as opposed to taking directions from rabbis and monks and clerics. We can guess this is because the clergy (of all, including Muslims) repeatedly interpret verses to their own benefit or for their own ease. Thats how we got Talmud Judaism which looks nothing like Torah Judaism and how Pauline Christianity today looks like the opposite religion of the Bible with respect to polygamy, divorce, pork, usury, homosexuality, the dress code, fasting, slavery etc. It's impossible to maintain divine laws and faith if the clergy change them at will, to suit themselves, or because it suits changing social trends, or because they want to give authoritative answers  answers where God has not given any.  
So, instead of guessing at the reason, ill share a few of the exact verses as compiled by AI (to remove my personal bias):

Here is a list of the verses from the Quran (using the Saheeh International translation) where Allah states that the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) is not a "manager" or "guardian" over people:

\---

1\. Surah Al-An‘am (6:107)

"And if Allah had willed, they would not have associated. And We have not appointed you over them as a guardian, and you are not a manager over them."

2\. Surah Yunus (10:108)

"Say, 'O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So whoever is guided is only guided for \[the benefit of\] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray \[in violation\] of it. And I am not over you a manager."

3\. Surah Al-Isra (17:54)  
"Your Lord is most knowing of you. If He wills, He will have mercy upon you; and if He wills, He will punish you. And We have not sent you, \[O Muhammad\], over them as a guardian."

4\. Surah Ash-Shura (42:48)

"But if they turn away - then We have not sent you, \[O Muhammad\], over them as a guardian. Upon you is only \[the duty of\] notification. And indeed, when We let man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices in it; but if evil afflicts him for what his hands have put forth, then indeed, man is ungrateful."

5\. Surah An-Nisa (4:80)

"He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian."

Key Notes (these are also added by AI, not by me):

\- The terms "guardian" (Arabic: \*ḥafīẓ\* or \*wakīl\*) and "manager" (Arabic: \*mushṭar\*) emphasize that the Prophet’s (ﷺ) role was solely to deliver the message, not to compel belief or control outcomes.

\- These verses reinforce the Quranic principle of free will and accountability, clarifying that guidance ultimately rests with Allah alone.

Let me know if you need further clarification!  
\---  
All of that was from AI because I asked it for a list of verses containing manager or guardian as an easy shortcut. There's actually many more references to the same principle with different wording.   
Also, I'm aware that many Muslims are pushy and aggressive in their attempt to convert. Sadly, that's their personal course of action, not the Islamic principle.  
  
Lastly, does the bible ask Christians to convert? Far as I remember it actually has the same principle of spreading the message and nothing about forceful conversion. Yes, same as with Muslims, many preachers ignored the bible and chose to forcefully convert the "savages".  
I hope our curiosity leads us to the truth. Peace upon you!

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booboolin · 3/4/2025, 9:03:55 AM · permalink

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q2025 · 3/4/2025, 1:07:51 PM · permalink

Nothing uncomfortable here at all. For some, uncomfortable might be discussions on the number of prophets wives, the controversy of their ages, polygamy, salvery, death sentences for homosexuality, the "sword verse" etc. I don't mind those also, because it would be stupid to respect, let alone accept,  a faith that was repulsive to your core, or to your soul. So I asked all those questions myself as well.   
  
Please allow me to give some context and historical facts so it's easier to understand the different approaches to the "holy books" and the role of the clergy in guiding Jews, Christians and Muslims.   
  
First of all, almost every Christian and Jewish academic and religious scholar accepts that the bible (old and new Testaments) are not the literal, verbatim word of God, or even the words of Moses or Jesus. Its almost universally accepted that the Bible (Old T, Psalms &amp; New T) is a collection of books and chapters which contain stories, accounts and perspectives of a host of human authors which include companions, disciples and followers of Moses, David and Jesus. Some of these authors were decades after Jesus or centuries later, in the cases of Moses. Thus there was a chain of human transmission and editing, or refinement as some call it, before we got the Bible in the form we have today. Please don't take my word for it, if you do a search on any verse or chapter in the bible, you'll find rabbis or priests giving their opinion as to the chain of authorship, which century they may have beem written in, and where they believe certain texts were copied from or how they were edited, in original, or in translation. Most Christians and Jews accept that their holy books are "divinely inspried" and "based upon, and in line" with the teachings" of God, through Moses, David and Jesus, and then through a chain of human disciples and followers lasting centuries.  
  
Well, suffice to say, humans are not perfect. We make mistakes. I'm sure you're aware of how the "Chinese whispers" game works. Some errors can be accidental and some might be deliberate. Some books were lost altogether,  like the Book of Wars of Yahweh, which is mentioned in the old testament but nowhere to be found. And to fill these gaps, or even to explain the basic contents to an overwhelmingly illiterate society of 3500-2000 years ago, rabbis and priests were needed to give explanations. That's why it is understandable that the talmud (edicts of rabbis) and papal edicts carry so much weight for jews and christians.   
And that's where the diversion began... in humans composition, human transmission and then human explanations of often mystical messaged of divine God. A perfect, omnipotent, non-human creator that humans try to understand and explain through an imperfect human lens and in terms of human psychology which varies from man to man and time to time. We know that humans are not perfect and our understanding is often inadequate and sometimes inappropriate. This is seen clearly by the fact that some popes reversed the rulings of earlier popes and every church changed its stance on many issues such as marriage, divorce, homosexuality, usury, slavery, excommunication, witchcraft, and yes, even trinity. You'll get as many opinions as there are humans. Some changes in directions can be attributed to personal views and understanding while others are obviously changes in response to changing social circumstances.  
For example, catholicism didn't allow divorce so the Church of England broke away and allowed it ONLY so the king could divorce his wife. Centuries later divorce became so common that even the pope had to make allowances. Usury was banned by both Testaments. Then the clerics came along and said well, it's only usury if it's excessive. So what's excessive? 8% for some, 13% for other? Simple or compounded? Pope Leo needed funds and his banker wanted usury to be allowed so the pope allowed it. Some disciples argued that Jesus came to fulfill the law and Paul said he came to abolish it (arguably because it was easier to convert gentiles if it didn't involve them having to get circumcised and snipping their penis). Many pre-Moses prophets can be seen preaching to non-believers, but the rabbis found they would have a greater hold over their people if they pushed a racist "us vs them" narrative, and damned the gentiles. So our perfect God was not a racist till Jacob and then decided to only favor Jacob's family based on DNA?  
  
See what's happening? Imperfect Humans changing what they claim to be divine law of a Perfect God.  
  
Now, coming to Islam. Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. It was memorized by tens of thousands of companions of Muhammad and written down within 15 years of his death. The earliest Quran (the Birmingham Manuscript) has been carbon dated to the exact same time frame. Every Quran you pick up anywhere in the world has the exact same arabic text, thought the translations may vary a little, obviously.  
  
Additionally, there are a collection of sayings of the prophet, called the Hadith, which were compiled a few decades after his death and which had an extremely meticulous method of collection and verification. Still, despite the extreme precautions taken, the tranmission and collection of hadith were a mortal effort and it shows its imperfections in some variations in various collections, and in very rare cases, some hadith being outrightly illogical to the vast majority of muslims.   
  
Due to these facts, along with the Islamic belief that God is perfect, islam developed a 4 tier  guidance system. The first and primary source is always the Quran, considered as the divine, literal word of God. These laws can't be changed by man, no matter how odd they sound, which makes sense only if you belive that God's wisdom is not only perfect, it's eternal. So polygamy,  practiced by Abraham, Moses, David etc and allowed in the bible and Quran, and practiced all over the world for millenia cant suddenly be outlawed because humans thought it odd in the last few centuries. Same with all the other concepts like slavery (allowed but disliked and discouraged, just like the bible).  
The secondary source, if you need clarification of something in the Quran, or if its not mentioned in the Quran, would be the hadith.   
The third source is "ijtima" or a collective decision of religious scholar who can be asked to issue a "fatwa" or an edict, but only if the issue isn't clarified in crystal clear terms in the Quran and hadith.  
  
The fourth source, if you can't find anything anywhere, is your own heart. You pray for guidance and go with your heart and your conscience.   
  
Quranic laws are considered Devine and unchangeable. As you go down the list, you get exposed to greater levels of possible error. That's why you'll find edicts that conflict with each other over the years and across different schools of thought. Individual opinion may be right or wrong, but we try to take guidance and hope for the best and hope for forgiveness if we're wrong.   
  
So, to answer your actual question, it's not like muslims never consult the scholars. Obviously, we do. But we're told not to consider clerical decrees as infallible or unchangeable. If any of them says interest is allowed, most muslims will write him off quickly, no matter how knowledgeable or famous he is because his decree contravened a Quranic or divine law.  
  
Quran 9:31. "They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God."  
  
Here, "lords" doesn't mean people consider priests and rabbis as divine gods, but if the bible says usury is sinful and the church/pope says it's OK, and someone charges and someone follows the church/pope, well, which authority is supreme?  
  
I'll add here that Muslims belive that an original, divine, literal word of God called the Torah was given through Moses, another called Zabur was given through David, and yet another called Injeel was given through Jesus just as the Quran was given through Muhammad. That all these books contained the same message of one God. However, rabbis and priests altered and edited these original verses over the centuries, sometimes deliberately to suit themselves and sometimes by mistake due to the imperfect transmission mechanism over centuries, and that's how we ended up having the present day Bible, which have become shadows of their original texts, "divinely inspired" instead of "divine".   
  
Wow, that's a long read. But plesse do fact check if you feel something I've written is incorrect. I didnt provide citations and sources to avoid passing on my personal bias. AI gives citations for everything so easily now. And please, if I'm wrong, tell me too! Always appreciate it when I'm corrected. Helps me to learn, grow and be a better soul. And please, feel free to ask if there's anything here or any other aspect you'd like me to clarify.  
  
Peace 🙏

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booboolin · 3/4/2025, 9:59:45 PM · permalink

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