Comment on White Flag by q2025

Parent Post: White Flag · In Reply To

q2025 · 3/2/2025, 6:51:34 PM · permalink

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booboolin · 3/2/2025, 8:31:48 PM · permalink

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q2025 · 3/3/2025, 2:17:59 AM · permalink

Most people would write a few reasons like it's beautiful and peaceful and give examples that fit human psychology on how volunteers are better than conscripts... but to be honest, we don't really know why God has ordained many things. We can only guess and try to gain an understanding.   
At this point, I should clarify that one very stark difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity. In Islam God shows an obvious disdain for the clergy and asks people to explore and think for themselves as opposed to taking directions from rabbis and monks and clerics. We can guess this is because the clergy (of all, including Muslims) repeatedly interpret verses to their own benefit or for their own ease. Thats how we got Talmud Judaism which looks nothing like Torah Judaism and how Pauline Christianity today looks like the opposite religion of the Bible with respect to polygamy, divorce, pork, usury, homosexuality, the dress code, fasting, slavery etc. It's impossible to maintain divine laws and faith if the clergy change them at will, to suit themselves, or because it suits changing social trends, or because they want to give authoritative answers  answers where God has not given any.  
So, instead of guessing at the reason, ill share a few of the exact verses as compiled by AI (to remove my personal bias):

Here is a list of the verses from the Quran (using the Saheeh International translation) where Allah states that the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) is not a "manager" or "guardian" over people:

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1\. Surah Al-An‘am (6:107)

"And if Allah had willed, they would not have associated. And We have not appointed you over them as a guardian, and you are not a manager over them."

2\. Surah Yunus (10:108)

"Say, 'O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So whoever is guided is only guided for \[the benefit of\] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray \[in violation\] of it. And I am not over you a manager."

3\. Surah Al-Isra (17:54)  
"Your Lord is most knowing of you. If He wills, He will have mercy upon you; and if He wills, He will punish you. And We have not sent you, \[O Muhammad\], over them as a guardian."

4\. Surah Ash-Shura (42:48)

"But if they turn away - then We have not sent you, \[O Muhammad\], over them as a guardian. Upon you is only \[the duty of\] notification. And indeed, when We let man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices in it; but if evil afflicts him for what his hands have put forth, then indeed, man is ungrateful."

5\. Surah An-Nisa (4:80)

"He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian."

Key Notes (these are also added by AI, not by me):

\- The terms "guardian" (Arabic: \*ḥafīẓ\* or \*wakīl\*) and "manager" (Arabic: \*mushṭar\*) emphasize that the Prophet’s (ﷺ) role was solely to deliver the message, not to compel belief or control outcomes.

\- These verses reinforce the Quranic principle of free will and accountability, clarifying that guidance ultimately rests with Allah alone.

Let me know if you need further clarification!  
\---  
All of that was from AI because I asked it for a list of verses containing manager or guardian as an easy shortcut. There's actually many more references to the same principle with different wording.   
Also, I'm aware that many Muslims are pushy and aggressive in their attempt to convert. Sadly, that's their personal course of action, not the Islamic principle.  
  
Lastly, does the bible ask Christians to convert? Far as I remember it actually has the same principle of spreading the message and nothing about forceful conversion. Yes, same as with Muslims, many preachers ignored the bible and chose to forcefully convert the "savages".  
I hope our curiosity leads us to the truth. Peace upon you!

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booboolin · 3/4/2025, 9:03:55 AM · permalink

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q2025 · 3/4/2025, 1:07:51 PM · permalink

Nothing uncomfortable here at all. For some, uncomfortable might be discussions on the number of prophets wives, the controversy of their ages, polygamy, salvery, death sentences for homosexuality, the "sword verse" etc. I don't mind those also, because it would be stupid to respect, let alone accept,  a faith that was repulsive to your core, or to your soul. So I asked all those questions myself as well.   
  
Please allow me to give some context and historical facts so it's easier to understand the different approaches to the "holy books" and the role of the clergy in guiding Jews, Christians and Muslims.   
  
First of all, almost every Christian and Jewish academic and religious scholar accepts that the bible (old and new Testaments) are not the literal, verbatim word of God, or even the words of Moses or Jesus. Its almost universally accepted that the Bible (Old T, Psalms &amp; New T) is a collection of books and chapters which contain stories, accounts and perspectives of a host of human authors which include companions, disciples and followers of Moses, David and Jesus. Some of these authors were decades after Jesus or centuries later, in the cases of Moses. Thus there was a chain of human transmission and editing, or refinement as some call it, before we got the Bible in the form we have today. Please don't take my word for it, if you do a search on any verse or chapter in the bible, you'll find rabbis or priests giving their opinion as to the chain of authorship, which century they may have beem written in, and where they believe certain texts were copied from or how they were edited, in original, or in translation. Most Christians and Jews accept that their holy books are "divinely inspried" and "based upon, and in line" with the teachings" of God, through Moses, David and Jesus, and then through a chain of human disciples and followers lasting centuries.  
  
Well, suffice to say, humans are not perfect. We make mistakes. I'm sure you're aware of how the "Chinese whispers" game works. Some errors can be accidental and some might be deliberate. Some books were lost altogether,  like the Book of Wars of Yahweh, which is mentioned in the old testament but nowhere to be found. And to fill these gaps, or even to explain the basic contents to an overwhelmingly illiterate society of 3500-2000 years ago, rabbis and priests were needed to give explanations. That's why it is understandable that the talmud (edicts of rabbis) and papal edicts carry so much weight for jews and christians.   
And that's where the diversion began... in humans composition, human transmission and then human explanations of often mystical messaged of divine God. A perfect, omnipotent, non-human creator that humans try to understand and explain through an imperfect human lens and in terms of human psychology which varies from man to man and time to time. We know that humans are not perfect and our understanding is often inadequate and sometimes inappropriate. This is seen clearly by the fact that some popes reversed the rulings of earlier popes and every church changed its stance on many issues such as marriage, divorce, homosexuality, usury, slavery, excommunication, witchcraft, and yes, even trinity. You'll get as many opinions as there are humans. Some changes in directions can be attributed to personal views and understanding while others are obviously changes in response to changing social circumstances.  
For example, catholicism didn't allow divorce so the Church of England broke away and allowed it ONLY so the king could divorce his wife. Centuries later divorce became so common that even the pope had to make allowances. Usury was banned by both Testaments. Then the clerics came along and said well, it's only usury if it's excessive. So what's excessive? 8% for some, 13% for other? Simple or compounded? Pope Leo needed funds and his banker wanted usury to be allowed so the pope allowed it. Some disciples argued that Jesus came to fulfill the law and Paul said he came to abolish it (arguably because it was easier to convert gentiles if it didn't involve them having to get circumcised and snipping their penis). Many pre-Moses prophets can be seen preaching to non-believers, but the rabbis found they would have a greater hold over their people if they pushed a racist "us vs them" narrative, and damned the gentiles. So our perfect God was not a racist till Jacob and then decided to only favor Jacob's family based on DNA?  
  
See what's happening? Imperfect Humans changing what they claim to be divine law of a Perfect God.  
  
Now, coming to Islam. Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. It was memorized by tens of thousands of companions of Muhammad and written down within 15 years of his death. The earliest Quran (the Birmingham Manuscript) has been carbon dated to the exact same time frame. Every Quran you pick up anywhere in the world has the exact same arabic text, thought the translations may vary a little, obviously.  
  
Additionally, there are a collection of sayings of the prophet, called the Hadith, which were compiled a few decades after his death and which had an extremely meticulous method of collection and verification. Still, despite the extreme precautions taken, the tranmission and collection of hadith were a mortal effort and it shows its imperfections in some variations in various collections, and in very rare cases, some hadith being outrightly illogical to the vast majority of muslims.   
  
Due to these facts, along with the Islamic belief that God is perfect, islam developed a 4 tier  guidance system. The first and primary source is always the Quran, considered as the divine, literal word of God. These laws can't be changed by man, no matter how odd they sound, which makes sense only if you belive that God's wisdom is not only perfect, it's eternal. So polygamy,  practiced by Abraham, Moses, David etc and allowed in the bible and Quran, and practiced all over the world for millenia cant suddenly be outlawed because humans thought it odd in the last few centuries. Same with all the other concepts like slavery (allowed but disliked and discouraged, just like the bible).  
The secondary source, if you need clarification of something in the Quran, or if its not mentioned in the Quran, would be the hadith.   
The third source is "ijtima" or a collective decision of religious scholar who can be asked to issue a "fatwa" or an edict, but only if the issue isn't clarified in crystal clear terms in the Quran and hadith.  
  
The fourth source, if you can't find anything anywhere, is your own heart. You pray for guidance and go with your heart and your conscience.   
  
Quranic laws are considered Devine and unchangeable. As you go down the list, you get exposed to greater levels of possible error. That's why you'll find edicts that conflict with each other over the years and across different schools of thought. Individual opinion may be right or wrong, but we try to take guidance and hope for the best and hope for forgiveness if we're wrong.   
  
So, to answer your actual question, it's not like muslims never consult the scholars. Obviously, we do. But we're told not to consider clerical decrees as infallible or unchangeable. If any of them says interest is allowed, most muslims will write him off quickly, no matter how knowledgeable or famous he is because his decree contravened a Quranic or divine law.  
  
Quran 9:31. "They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God."  
  
Here, "lords" doesn't mean people consider priests and rabbis as divine gods, but if the bible says usury is sinful and the church/pope says it's OK, and someone charges and someone follows the church/pope, well, which authority is supreme?  
  
I'll add here that Muslims belive that an original, divine, literal word of God called the Torah was given through Moses, another called Zabur was given through David, and yet another called Injeel was given through Jesus just as the Quran was given through Muhammad. That all these books contained the same message of one God. However, rabbis and priests altered and edited these original verses over the centuries, sometimes deliberately to suit themselves and sometimes by mistake due to the imperfect transmission mechanism over centuries, and that's how we ended up having the present day Bible, which have become shadows of their original texts, "divinely inspired" instead of "divine".   
  
Wow, that's a long read. But plesse do fact check if you feel something I've written is incorrect. I didnt provide citations and sources to avoid passing on my personal bias. AI gives citations for everything so easily now. And please, if I'm wrong, tell me too! Always appreciate it when I'm corrected. Helps me to learn, grow and be a better soul. And please, feel free to ask if there's anything here or any other aspect you'd like me to clarify.  
  
Peace 🙏

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booboolin · 3/4/2025, 9:59:45 PM · permalink

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