deletejuice · p/islam · 3/15/2025, 10:30:09 AM

Proof of God

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 8:18:05 PM · permalink

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deletejuice · 6/2/2025, 3:21:04 AM · permalink

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hyokkim · 6/2/2025, 4:59:06 AM · permalink

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deletejuice · 6/2/2025, 1:56:25 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 6/2/2025, 5:16:47 PM · permalink

''So you are presupposing god, which means you are not an atheist, which means my objective is already complete &amp; this post is not for you.''  
  
Not necessarily, I have already stated repeatedly, all Abrahamic religions are fictions.  
  
''You are right, God is all knowing and already knows the outcome of all tests. But the idea isn’t that God needs to test us for His knowledge. The test is for us, to let our choices actually play out in real life. That way, reward or punishment is based on actions we really took, not just what God knew we would do.''  
  
It's more than that; we are what we are, intellectually, morally, and physically because God had already decided.   God knows the actions we will be taking intimately long before we are even born.   We take those actions because that's what God had preordained before we are even born.   The notion the punishment/reward is at least partially based on actions we took, independently of what God would do amounts to sophistry since we take those actions precisely because God had already decided we would do so.  
  
''Think of it like an ideal teacher who knows which students will pass, but still gives the exam so the results are fair and public. The test gives everyone a chance to choose, grow, and be accountable.''  
  
God is more than a teacher; a teacher does not decide what we would be intellectually, morally, and physically before we are born.  
  
God had decided whether we would be smart, strong, moral, or not before we are even born.   No, test does not give a chance to choose, grow and be accountable, since God had already decided who would be worthy enough to pass those tests before we are even born.

''Also, tests in life help build patience, character, and faith. So it’s also part of spiritual development.''  
  
No, God had already decided who among us would be good enough to pass, build patience, character, and faith; whether one is good enough to accomplish what you said above had already been decided by God.

''So yeah, God knows the outcome, but we still go through the process - not for His sake, but for ours.''  
  
No, we are not going through the process for our sake; we never agreed to be even born; it was His decision that we are born, and to go through the process.   This is the case based on the idea of omniscient God.

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deletejuice · 6/2/2025, 7:07:33 PM · permalink

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devnm23 · 5/31/2025, 7:19:54 AM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/31/2025, 7:49:20 AM · permalink

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devnm23 · 5/31/2025, 3:39:40 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/31/2025, 4:35:07 PM · permalink

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devnm23 · 5/31/2025, 6:16:44 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 6/1/2025, 7:32:05 AM · permalink

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devnm23 · 6/1/2025, 10:13:36 AM · permalink

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hyokkim · 6/1/2025, 10:36:38 AM · permalink

''Logical arguments don't force one to suddenly start believing in God or the Abrahamic faiths; it's a personal decision.'' - devnm23

Logical arguments also do not force one to accept non-Abrahamic God, without explicitly rejecting the notion of Abrahamic God in discussion; are you really dealing with a subject matter with honestly or are you just being catty? - Hyok Kim  
  
  
''You're acting like you're so afraid of the subject matter that you rather talk about anything but it. It's really becoming childish. I didn't limit the discussion to Abrahamic faiths or non Abrahamic faiths.''  
  
...then why did you feel to include Quran?  
  
Isn't your discussion of God supposed to be free of reference to Quran?  Once you feel bound by the definition of God from Quran, aren't you already basing your definition of God based on Quran?

''I said “Logical arguments don't force one to suddenly start believing in God or the Abrahamic faiths; it's a personal decision” - devnm23   
  
Are 'logical arguments' supposed be based on personal decision?   What if the person making his personal decision is irrational and/or insane?    
  
Are 'non-logical arguments' not supposed to be based on personal decision?   Then what is it supposed to be based upon?

''Clearly I made it inclusive to any belief in God and highlighted Abrahamic faiths without limiting it to that one.'' - devnm23   
  
...yet, you did include Quran, to come to the definition of God; why did you feel that way?

''Perhaps this isn't the thread for you? Establishing Necessary Existence?'' - devnm23   
  
Perhaps your thread lacks the foundation of logic; God that is not necessarily based on Quran, but yet is still based upon Quran?  
  
\[\[Although, this post doesn't aim at bringing someone towards Islam, yet I will state the definition of a necessary existence using Quran 112 (Surah Ikhlas) and all references to a necessary existence would refer to this definition by default - '' - devnm23

"A Necessary Existence is an existence that is absolutely one, indivisible, and self-sufficient. It is eternal and neither dependent on anything nor composed of parts. It is fundamentally uncaused, not generated by anything, and nothing can cause it to cease. Its nature is unique and unchanging, existing by necessity rather than by possibility." - devnm23

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devnm23 · 6/1/2025, 11:49:42 AM · permalink

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hyokkim · 6/1/2025, 6:06:11 PM · permalink

Dude, it's clear you're avoiding the issue you yourself raised:  
  
''Logical arguments don't force one to suddenly start believing in God or the Abrahamic faiths; it's a personal decision.'' - devnm23

''...then why did you feel to include Quran?

Isn't your discussion of God supposed to be free of reference to Quran? Once you feel bound by the definition of God from Quran, aren't you already basing your definition of God based on Quran?'' - Hyok Kim  
  
''I said “Logical arguments don't force one to suddenly start believing in God or the Abrahamic faiths; it's a personal decision” - devnm23

''Are 'logical arguments' supposed be based on personal decision? What if the person making his personal decision is irrational and/or insane?

Are 'non-logical arguments' not supposed to be based on personal decision? Then what is it supposed to be based upon? '' - Hyok Kim  
  
  
  
''Clearly I made it inclusive to any belief in God and highlighted Abrahamic faiths without limiting it to that one.'' - devnm23

''...yet, you did include Quran, to come to the definition of God; why did you feel that way?'' - Hyok Kim  
  
''Perhaps this isn't the thread for you? Establishing Necessary Existence?'' - devnm23  
  
''Perhaps your thread lacks the foundation of logic; God that is not necessarily based on Quran, but yet is still based upon Quran?'' - Hyok Kim

\[\[Although, this post doesn't aim at bringing someone towards Islam, yet I will state the definition of a necessary existence using Quran 112 (Surah Ikhlas) and all references to a necessary existence would refer to this definition by default - '' - devnm23

Proof of God

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