Comment on Proportional representative system......... by hyokkim

Parent Post: Proportional representative system......... · In Reply To

hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 5:43:13 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 6:25:24 PM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 8:59:25 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 9:41:11 PM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 10:11:41 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/29/2025, 1:04:56 AM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/29/2025, 1:09:43 PM · permalink

Every election nullifies the preceding election when the voters decide so, yes.

That's how it works.  
  
The only problem is that when the elected representative betray their electors the day after the election, the electors need to wait 4 years before having a chance to nullify them.  
  
Whereas with tokens, at least electors can manage the elected power for the rest of their mandate. If they don't keep their promises, they loose their elector's tokens and they can't pass their bills.  
  
Think of a politician campaigning in your district, telling you everything you want to hear. I'm going to vote in favor of this, I'm going to vote against that, and you're like yeah, this guy thinks exactly like me, so you vote for him to represent you and vote in your name in congress. That guy gets elected. He's congressman X.  
  
Suddenly the day after the election, a huge event happens, a large scale catastrophe.  In response to that, congress is going to pass a bill that you don't like at all. Then, you learn that this guy you voted for, congressman X, he's going to vote "yay" for that bill, in your name, in congress, and you don't agree with that at all. Moreover, you learn that this guy was campaigning with money from sponsors you don't like and has personal relations with people you don't trust. That guy maybe is compromised or corrupted.  
  
This new catastrophic situation, everybody is talking about it. Most of your friends and family members don't agree with what the government wants to do. That bill is just not the right solution and will even make things worst. But in the media, the narrative is pushing in favor of that bill. So called experts tell you that it's the right thing to do. Nevertheless, all around you, everyone you know is against that bill. The weird thing is that 500 of the 535 voting members in congress are in favor of that bill while absolutely no one around you is favorable to it.  
  
Now there's another congressman, congressman Y, that comes out in the mass media, opposed to that bill. He got a very few congressmen on his side. They're all depicted as crazy, even though everyone in your family and friends actually agree with them.  
  
Sounds familiar?  
  
I get how armed citizens could mobilize, manifest and even go as far as using the threat of civil war to oppose the government. But what if you could take your vote token out of congressman's X hand and give it to congressman's Y?

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hyokkim · 5/29/2025, 5:05:55 PM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/29/2025, 5:48:10 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/30/2025, 1:43:47 AM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 9:34:47 PM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 6:17:51 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 6:30:16 PM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 6:51:19 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 7:02:53 PM · permalink

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 7:19:28 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 7:37:12 PM · permalink

''Also, even if you spent your entire time monitoring politics, you'd only still have one vote token. So the parasites don't have more power than others under this system.''  
  
...but they would have better political intel than full time working joes; they would have the time to email/post/spread the agitprop than full time working joes.  
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agitprop  
  
Why jacobins were politically far more effective during the French revolution than other groups.  
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobins#Character  
  
''I disagree.

Corrupt politicians can't secretly communicate under live stream.'' - you

''And even so, if they happen to achieve secret communications. If they start taking positions you disagree with, you move your voting token to his opposition.'' - you

''What if the opposition is either the same or worse?'' - me in response

''Who spends time right now in the current system? You seem to be aware of what's going on, you seem to be conscious. Also, you don't look like an unemployed parasite.'' - you

''...but if I were an unemployed parasite, I would have even more time/energy than I have now!'' - me in response

''I guess that if you could control your vote after the election,...'' - you

''...and how would you propose to do that?'' - me in response

'' you may sometimes change who represents you.'' - you

''Wouldn't that create chaos/instability needlessly?'' - me in response

''One day you give power to Trump for an issue, next day you switch your token to Massie, next day to AOC if you want.'' - you

''You will end up destabilizing the government; you are going to be replacing the entire cabinet, day to day? Who would even take a job under such system?'' - me in response

''You decide who represents you and you give them your token.

And if they betray you, because of secret influence or by being purely evil, you take the token away and take away their power. and give it to some other representative that you decide to trust.'' - you

''Dude, this begs the question you keep avoiding; how old are you? How many jobs have you had? Have you ever served in the military/intel/LE/Security? You basically create a hyper unstable government, basically ultra hyper anarchy, worse than even a normal anarchy.'' - me in response  
  
Why do you keep avoiding the question?

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 8:52:07 PM · permalink

Ok i'll manage my work time just to answer you. I just hope you're not just a bot programmed to be unpleasant and insisting.  
  
Let's go:  
  
\-------------------------  
''I disagree.

Corrupt politicians can't secretly communicate under live stream.'' - me

''Dude, corrupt politician can easily bypass the live stream to communicate with one another; how old are you? How many jobs have you had? Have you ever been in the militsry/LE/Security?'' - you in response  
  
"tell me how would you manage to secretly communicate, efficiently on a regular basis, a large volume of information, all this while being under audio-video surveillance 24/7 over a period of 4 years? I mean, I can see how a trained asset with a sophisticated secret coding could transmit some info, but the volume of information would be greatly amputated and public scrutiny, especially by people trained in subversive techniques, would likely spot what's going on." my response2.  
  
\---------------------------  
  
'And even so, if they happen to achieve secret communications. If they start taking positions you disagree with, you move your voting token to his opposition.'' - me

''What if the opposition is either the same or worse?'' - you in response  
  
"You don't seem to understant how the congress works. The way the congress works is proposition of a bill followed by vote "yea" or "nay". So if you don't like that the congressman that represents you vote "yea", just move your token to any other congressman you like that votes "nay". my answer.  
  
\----------------  
  
  
''Who spends time right now in the current system? You seem to be aware of what's going on, you seem to be conscious. Also, you don't look like an unemployed parasite.'' - me

''...but if I were an unemployed parasite, I would have even more time/energy than I have now!'' -you in response  
  
"ok, you still have just one token. If you spend less time keeping yourself informed, you might put your token in the wrong place. Your responsibility." my answer.  
  
\----------------------  
  
''I guess that if you could control your vote after the election,...'' - you

''...and how would you propose to do that?'' - me in response  
  
"anonymous blockchain voting token given to ID verified voters on election day. After election day, you can re-assign that token to any elected congressman anytime you want. Congressmens keep their seats and the stability of the government. But the power they have in voting depends on how people trust them and assign their tokens. So if they betray the people, they loose their tokens and they can't vote their bills."  
  
\---------------------  
  
''Dude, this begs the question you keep avoiding; how old are you? How many jobs have you had? Have you ever served in the military/intel/LE/Security? You basically create a hyper unstable government, basically ultra hyper anarchy, worse than even a normal anarchy.'' - me in response  
  
"my personal info is irrelevant. Just assume i'm a liberal transgender 20 year old studying in race theory with a background as a trained mossad agent i don't care."  
  
\---------  
"I had already said so: Proportional representation, backed by population armed to the teeth, and organized militarily, independent of government." that's what you propose  
  
How is it any different than what we already have?  
How does this prevent politicians to lie, decieve and be corrupted?  
How do you make sure that the government is independent?  
Independent from what?  
In my opinion, this is just proposing vague, empty ideas with no intrinsic concrete mechanisms by tossing political buzzwords.

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 9:30:05 PM · permalink

''Ok i'll manage my work time just to answer you. I just hope you're not just a bot programmed to be unpleasant and insisting.

Let's go:''  
  
I must have gotten to you, huh?  
  
''I disagree.

Corrupt politicians can't secretly communicate under live stream.'' - you

"tell me how would you manage to secretly communicate, efficiently on a regular basis, a large volume of information, all this while being under audio-video surveillance 24/7 over a period of 4 years?'' - you in response  
  
Dude, how would you put the entire congress members in 24/7 surveillance?  
  
Are you for real?  
  
''And even so, if they happen to achieve secret communications. If they start taking positions you disagree with, you move your voting token to his opposition.'' - you

''What if the opposition is either the same or worse?'' - me in response

"You don't seem to understant how the congress works. The way the congress works is proposition of a bill followed by vote "yea" or "nay". So if you don't like that the congressman that represents you vote "yea", just move your token to any other congressman you like that votes "nay". my answer.''  
  
Dude, are you implying then congress will keep voting till you find an opposition member whose decision you like?    You're just one voter; what if other voters like the voting result that happened that you do not like?   Are you saying congress will nullify the votes just because you, a one voter does not like the result?   Are you for real?  
  
''Who spends time right now in the current system? You seem to be aware of what's going on, you seem to be conscious. Also, you don't look like an unemployed parasite.'' - you

''...but if I were an unemployed parasite, I would have even more time/energy than I have now!'' - me in response

"ok, you still have just one token. If you spend less time keeping yourself informed, you might put your token in the wrong place. Your responsibility." my answer.  
  
Dude, a person with more time/energy at hands would be far more effective in agitprop, in influencing politicians, and other voters than the ones without?  
  
You obviously do not understand the importance of agitprop, do you?  
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agitprop  
  
''I guess that if you could control your vote after the election,...'' - you

''...and how would you propose to do that?'' - me in response

"anonymous blockchain voting token given to ID verified voters on election day. After election day, you can re-assign that token to any elected congressman anytime you want. Congressmens keep their seats and the stability of the government. But the power they have in voting depends on how people trust them and assign their tokens. So if they betray the people, they loose their tokens and they can't vote their bills." - you in response  
  
"anonymous blockchain voting token given to ID verified voters on election day.'' - you  
  
How would you make sure that the blockchain remains anonymous, for the ID verified voters?   Didn't you say the vote would take place at public terminal, where it could be under video surveillance?     The time and date, and the location on record, with whom on that terminal?     
  
''Dude, this begs the question you keep avoiding; how old are you? How many jobs have you had? Have you ever served in the military/intel/LE/Security? You basically create a hyper unstable government, basically ultra hyper anarchy, worse than even a normal anarchy.'' - me in response

"my personal info is irrelevant. Just assume i'm a liberal transgender 20 year old studying in race theory with a background as a trained mossad agent i don't care." you in response  
  
Hiding something; why so bashful?    
  
"I had already said so: Proportional representation, backed by population armed to the teeth, and organized militarily, independent of government." that's what you propose

''How is it any different than what we already have?''  
  
Dude, that's not really what we have today; obviously you are not very well informed of the state of 2nd amendment in U.S. do you?

''How does this prevent politicians to lie, decieve and be corrupted?''  
  
It deters the government from physically trying to impose laws people do not like.  Didn't Mao say?, ''Power grows out of the barrel of the gun."

''How do you make sure that the government is independent?''  
  
Dude; you misquoted me.  I said, the people organized militarily independent of government.

''Independent from what?''  
  
I had already said so, independent from government.

''In my opinion, this is just proposing vague, empty ideas with no intrinsic concrete mechanisms by tossing political buzzwords.''  
  
No, I clearly had said, people armed to the teeth, organized militarily, independent of government.

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modernizedemocracy · 5/28/2025, 7:16:31 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 5/28/2025, 7:50:18 PM · permalink

''I disagree.

Corrupt politicians can't secretly communicate under live stream.'' - you

''Dude, corrupt politician can easily bypass the live stream to communicate with one another; how old are you? How many jobs have you had? Have you ever been in the militsry/LE/Security?'' - me in response  
  
So you don't deny the corrupt politicians can easily bypass the live stream to communicate with one another?  
  
''And even so, if they happen to achieve secret communications. If they start taking positions you disagree with, you move your voting token to his opposition.'' - you

''What if the opposition is either the same or worse?'' - me in response  
  
No answer from you.  
  
''Who spends time right now in the current system? You seem to be aware of what's going on, you seem to be conscious. Also, you don't look like an unemployed parasite.'' - you

''...but if I were an unemployed parasite, I would have even more time/energy than I have now!'' - me in response  
  
Again, no response from you; you don't deny I would have far more time/energy/power to influence the politicians as an economic parasite than as a full time working joe?  
  
''Now I realize that you haven't read the proposed system at all. Or you misunderstood.

The system is the following:

You vote during an election and those who get elected will have a seat for the entire mandate. The government stays stable.

But.

When they vote for a bill, they vote with the weight of the tokens they have in hand. That means that if a million voters voted for them, their vote weights a million armed citizens.

If the representative you gave your token to disappoints you, you take back your token (by the encrypted mechanisms I described in previously posted pochas) and reassign your token to some other representative that you better like.'' - you  
  
Dude, you are contradicting yourself: You had said:  
  
  
''I guess that if you could control your vote after the election, you may sometimes change who represents you.  One day you give power to Trump for an issue, next day you switch your token to Massie, next day to AOC if you want. You decide who represents you and you give them your token.'' - you

''Why are you interested in my personal life? It's irrelevant with the exchange of ideas we currently have. Judge the idea, not the bearer.''   
  
Because you contradict your statement, and you betray a great deal of naivete in how the world really works in the areas you claim to know; you clearly do not.

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