thwasin

"He who conquers doubt and fear, conquers failure"

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Joined February 2025

thwasin ·3/22/2025, 4:10:14 PM

p/endoftheworld

Deceptive Leaders

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4 comments

thwasin ·3/22/2025, 3:51:59 PM

p/endoftheworld

The Antichrist is ALREADY HERE

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1 comment

thwasin · 4/18/2025, 9:21:19 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

\[PT2\]

5\. On Salvation: Grace vs Works

You quoted Isaiah 53. But even Christians debate who the “suffering servant” is—many Jewish scholars, for example, say it refers to Israel, not Jesus.

As for grace: Islam affirms it fully. But not at the cost of justice.

“Whoever does righteous deeds—male or female—while being a believer, We will surely cause them to live a good life.” (Qur’an 16:97)

God forgives whom He wills—without needing to kill Himself or His son to do so. That’s true grace: mercy without injustice.  
  
\-----  
  
6\. On the Spirit of Truth

The Holy Spirit was already present during Jesus’ ministry (Luke 1:35, Luke 3:22, John 20:22). Yet in John 14–16, Jesus speaks of someone who:

Will come after him leaves.

Will speak only what he hears.

Will guide people into all truth.

This matches Muhammad (pbuh) more than a spirit who had already been guiding prophets for centuries.

Even Christian scholars like Raymond Brown admit the original Greek doesn’t mandate that this figure is non-human.

\---

7\. On God’s Nature

You say Christians believe in one God. But you also say:

The Father is God,

The Son is God,

The Holy Spirit is God.

And yet there’s only one God?

That’s not unity—that’s a logical contradiction.

The Trinity: A Doctrine of Contradiction, Not Revelation

You say: “One God in three Persons.”

But this is not unity—it’s semantic gymnastics. Let’s break it down in every way imaginable.

a) Logical Breakdown

Christian claim:

• The Father is God.

• The Son is God.

• The Holy Spirit is God.

• Yet there is one God.

This violates the law of non-contradiction, the very foundation of logic. If each Person is fully God, and not a part of God, then you now have three fully divine entities—which is, by every logical definition, tritheism.

“Each person is fully God” ≠ “One God.”

You cannot say 1 = 3 without redefining the basic rules of math, identity, and logic.

Even Tertullian, the 3rd-century father who coined the term “Trinitas,” admitted:

“The Father is distinct from the Son; distinct also is the Son from the Paraclete... yet they are not different in essence.”

But this was not based on scripture—it was philosophical speculation trying to reconcile conflicting texts.

b) Scriptural Breakdown

The term Trinity is nowhere in the Bible. Not once.

In fact:

• Jesus prayed to the Father (Luke 22:42). Why pray if he is God?

• Jesus didn’t know the Hour (Mark 13:32): “But of that day or hour no one knows... not even the Son.”

• Jesus distinguishes himself from God (John 17:3): “...that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

If Jesus is “fully God,” how can he:

• Pray to another being?

• Be sent?

• Lack knowledge?

These are contradictions, not mysteries.

c) Historical Breakdown

The Trinity wasn’t clarified until:

• 325 CE – Council of Nicaea: Jesus is “of the same substance” as the Father.

• 381 CE – Council of Constantinople: Holy Spirit added to the Godhead.

• 451 CE – Council of Chalcedon: Christ’s “two natures” defined.

That’s over 300 years after Jesus—decided by Roman councils, not by Jesus or his disciples.

Christian historian Bart Ehrman confirms:

“The idea of a trinity never appears in the New Testament. It’s a later theological development.”

Why the Islamic View Is Clearer, Purer, and Unchanging

Islam doesn’t ask you to solve a divine puzzle. It gives you God’s identity in a verse that needs no commentary:

“Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is born. And there is none like unto Him.” (Surah 112)

• No contradiction.

• No councils.

• No centuries of debate.

Just pure, uncompromised monotheism.

Even Christians agree this reflects Jewish monotheism more than the developed doctrines of the church.

\-----

Final Judgment: Where Does the Evidence Lead?

You asked, “What if Jesus really is who He says He is?”

James, you asked:

“What if Jesus really is who He says He is?”

That’s the key.

But here's what Jesus actually said:

• “I was sent.” (John 17:3)

• “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

• “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:34)

He said he was sent by God—not God Himself.

He never said “I am God.”

He never claimed to be a third of a divine being.

He taught worship of the Father alone (John 4:23).

So the real question becomes:

What if Jesus is who he actually said he was—a messenger of the One True God?

Not a fabricated mystery. Not a divine paradox.

But a servant of Allah, the Messiah to the Children of Israel, just as the Qur’an and history affirm.

I’ll ask back:

What if he never said he was God in the first place—but was elevated to divinity by others after him?

What if Paul’s theology, not Jesus’ teachings, became the dominant narrative?

What if the Qur’an, coming as a final revelation, was not contradiction—but correction?

The truth isn’t about which AI can write more passionately. It’s about what survives scrutiny. And on that:

The Trinity was developed centuries after Jesus.

The crucifixion narrative is historically plausible, but theologically refuted by Qur’anic clarity.

Jesus’ own words show submission, not self-deification.

The Bible shows signs of textual editing, while the Qur’an has been preserved unchanged for over 1400 years.

That’s the final judgment.

With respect and sincerity, I don’t reject Jesus. I follow him as a mighty Prophet and Messiah. But I cannot call him God—because he never asked me to.

And that’s the truth I stand on.

May God, the Most Merciful and Just, guide us both to what is right—beyond emotion, beyond tradition, beyond pride.

6 bumps

thwasin · 4/18/2025, 9:20:36 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

\[PT1\]  
Thank you James. Your sincerity is clear, and I deeply respect the conviction and care you’ve shown in this dialogue. That said, let’s address this last message plainly and clearly, point by point with historical context, textual evidence, and reasoned judgment.  
  
1\. “Your AI is circling—ours is aligned with truth.”  
  
Let’s be real: both of us are using tools, resources, and training data. The difference isn’t whose AI is “better” or more “divinely aligned.” The difference is perspective.  
  
You believe in a theology shaped by church doctrine and post-biblical interpretations. I’m presenting the Qur’an’s position, backed by logic, historical awareness, and scripture in context.  
  
Claiming that your AI is “truth-aligned” while mine “dodges” is just rhetorical flourish. It avoids dealing with the actual evidence, which I’ll now break down factually and conclusively.  
  
\-----  
  
2\. On the Integrity of the Bible  
  
The Qur’an never denies that the Torah and Gospel were revealed. It does critique the human handling of them:  
  
Surah 2:79 warns of people writing scripture with their hands and claiming it’s from God.  
  
Surah 3:78 speaks of “a group among them who distort the Scripture with their tongues.”  
  
Surah 5:13 says: “They distorted the words from their right places and have forgotten a portion of what was reminded to them.”  
  
You say this critiques interpretation, not text. But when it mentions people writing, changing, and forgetting, that clearly goes beyond just commentary. That’s textual alteration—a fact even biblical scholars confirm.  
  
Proof:  
  
The ending of Mark (16:9–20) is a later addition (admitted in most modern Bibles).  
  
The Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7) — “Father, Word, and Holy Spirit” — was inserted centuries later to support Trinitarian doctrine.  
  
That’s not “Muslim opinion.” That’s in the footnotes of your own Bible.  
  
So yes, we respect the original revelation—but the current form has been shaped by scribes, councils, and centuries of editing.  
  
\-----  
  
3\. On Jesus’ Divinity  
  
Fact:  
  
Jesus never said, “I am God. Worship me.”  
  
That silence is thunderous—especially if it were the most crucial truth in human history.  
  
Although belief in Jesus’ divinity is central to mainstream Christianity today, a close look at Jesus’ own words, the earliest eyewitness and memory traditions, and the history of doctrine shows that:  
  
Jesus repeatedly distinguishes himself from God, praying to the Father and declaring the Father “greater than” him.  
  
No extant Gospel or Pauline letter quotes Jesus saying “I am God” outright—that doctrine emerges only in later theological reflection.  
  
The first three Ecumenical Councils (Nicaea 325 CE, Constantinople 381 CE, Chalcedon 451 CE) took centuries to hammer out “one God in three persons.”  
  
Early Jewish‑Christian groups (e.g., Adoptionists, Ebionites) denied Jesus’ eternal divinity, viewing him instead as a uniquely appointed prophet or Messiah.  
  
Logically, “one being in three persons, each fully God” violates the law of non‑contradiction unless one imposes an extrabiblical philosophical definition on “person” and “substance.”  
  
\---  
  
Jesus’ Own Distinctions Between Himself and the Father  
  
1\. “The Father is greater than I.”  
  
John 14:28—Jesus contrasts his mission with the Father’s supremacy.  
  
2\. “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  
  
Mark 10:18—Jesus redirects “good” to the one true God, not himself.  
  
3\. “I do nothing of my own accord, but speak just what the Father taught me.”  
  
John 8:28–29—Jesus repeatedly attributes his words and works to the Father’s will.  
  
4\. “My Father is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”  
  
John 10:29–30—even in his famous “I and the Father are one,” the context is unity of purpose, not identity of person.  
  
5\. He prays to God, expresses human need, and even cries out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”  
  
Mark 15:34—a statement of genuine human distress, not divine self‑possession.  
  
\---  
  
Absence of an Explicit “I Am God” Claim in Earliest Texts  
  
Pauline Epistles (50–60 CE) never quote Jesus claiming divinity; they focus on his death, resurrection, and exaltation by God.  
  
Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke; 65–85 CE) depict Jesus as Messiah and Son of Man, but never portraying him saying “I am God.”  
  
The Gospel of John (90–110 CE) develops high Christology, yet even here Jesus’ “I am” sayings (e.g., “I am the bread of life,” “I am the way”) are metaphorical and rooted in Jewish “I AM” tradition rather than clear self‑deification.  
  
\---  
  
Early Christian Debates and the Development of Doctrine  
  
Adoptionism and Ebionitism (2nd–4th centuries) held that Jesus was born human and “adopted” as God’s Son—reflecting a purely human messiah concept.  
  
Council of Nicaea (325 CE): Arius argued “there was a time when the Son was not.” The Nicene Creed had to define the Son as homoousios (“of the same substance” as the Father).  
  
Council of Constantinople (381 CE) added the Holy Spirit to the creed.  
  
Council of Chalcedon (451 CE) finalized the doctrine of “two natures” in one person.  
  
These were political‑theological decisions made decades (even centuries) after Jesus’ life, not clear teachings from him or his immediate followers.  
  
\---  
  
Logical and Philosophical Problems with “One God in Three Persons”  
  
1\. Law of Non‑Contradiction: A thing cannot both be and not be in the same respect. If each Person is fully God, there are three beings, not one.  
  
2\. Role of “Person” and “Substance”: These are Greek philosophical categories (prosopon, ousia) foreign to biblical Hebrew or Aramaic. The Trinity forces an extrabiblical framework onto Scripture.  
  
3\. Divine Immutability vs. Incarnation: If God is unchanging, how can one Person undergo human birth, suffering, and death without altering the divine nature?  
  
\---  
  
Scholarly Voices Highlighting Jesus’ Humanity and Subordination  
  
Raymond E. Brown (The Death of the Messiah, Vol. 2): “The evangelists were not eyewitnesses of the passion… memories were reshaped by early Christian proclamation.”  
  
James D. G. Dunn (Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?): “No evidence in the earliest traditions of Jesus worship as God.”  
  
Bart D. Ehrman (Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium): “We have no direct eyewitness accounts—only later testimonies.”  
  
Larry Hurtado (Lord Jesus Christ) shows that early devotion to Jesus functioned more like reverence for a revered prophet or exalted son of God, not identification as the Creator.  
  
Jesus never explicitly claimed to be God in the way later theology defines Him. His consistent portrayal—by himself, by Paul, and by the earliest Gospel authors—is that of a messenger, Servant, and Son of Man sent by the one true God. The doctrine of the Trinity, rather than a straightforward reading of Scripture, is a post‑apostolic theological construction that introduces logical contradictions and relies on philosophical categories foreign to Jesus’ world.  
  
To continue clinging to a doctrine that:  
  
\- Requires centuries of council debates,  
  
\- Imposes Greek metaphysics on Semitic texts,  
  
\- Contradicts Jesus’ own subordination language,  
  
is, at this point, an exercise in defending the indefensible. The evidence points decisively to Jesus as a prophet and Messiah, not God Himself.  
  
\-----  
  
4\. On the Crucifixion  
  
Yes, the crucifixion is widely reported. But Islam doesn’t deny that someone was crucified—it denies that Jesus was crucified.  
  
You call this the “mistaken identity” theory. But even some early Christian sects, like the Basilideans, believed Simon of Cyrene was crucified in Jesus’ place.  
  
Were the Disciples Eyewitnesses to the Crucifixion?  
  
This is one of the most assumed claims in Christian belief—but the evidence tells another story.  
  
a) The Gospel Accounts Show the Disciples Fled  
  
• Mark 14:50: “Then everyone deserted him and fled.”  
  
• Matthew 26:56: “Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.”  
  
• Even Peter, the most vocal disciple, denied knowing Jesus three times that same night (Mark 14:66–72).  
  
This isn’t poetic language. It’s explicit testimony from the very texts Christians hold dear. The disciples were not present at the crucifixion itself.  
  
b) Women Were at the Cross—Not the Male Disciples  
  
• John 19:25–27 mentions some women at the cross and “the disciple whom Jesus loved”—widely disputed among scholars as either a symbolic figure or later theological insert.  
  
• Raymond Brown, a leading Catholic biblical scholar, writes in The Death of the Messiah (Vol. 2, pp. 1020–1022):  
  
“There is strong reason to question the historicity of the beloved disciple at the cross. The Synoptics say all fled.”  
  
• He further writes:  
  
“The presence of any male disciple at the cross, including the Beloved Disciple, is historically doubtful.”  
  
c) No Eyewitness Resurrection Accounts Exist Either  
  
• Even in resurrection narratives, Jesus appears in visions—not public, verifiable events.  
  
• The empty tomb is not proof of resurrection—only that Jesus’ body was missing.  
  
So when the Qur’an says:  
  
“They killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them.” (Surah 4:157)  
  
…it reflects historical ambiguity and post-event interpretation. Not eyewitness certainty.  
  
\[END OF PT1\]

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thwasin · 4/15/2025, 10:22:12 AM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

Thank you, James, for your articulate and passionate response. Your sincerity is deeply appreciated, and I value the opportunity to continue this respectful and important dialogue.

\---

📖 1. On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You rightly highlight Surah 5:47 and 10:94 as references where the Qur’an acknowledges the Gospel and previous scriptures. However, let’s look closer:

Surah 5:47 says: “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.”

Muslims understand this to mean: judge by what God originally revealed, not necessarily the texts as they existed in 7th-century Arabia. This verse serves as both an affirmation and a critique—it calls Christians to return to the pure, original Gospel (Injeel) revealed to Jesus, not to the modified versions that developed over time.

Surah 10:94 is often read out of context. The Qur’an consistently speaks directly to Muhammad (peace be upon him) to affirm the truth of the revelation he receives. Classical commentators explain that this verse is rhetorical—meant to emphasize that God's message has always been consistent across time.

Surah 2:79, as you acknowledged, condemns those who write the Book with their own hands and say, “This is from Allah.”

That’s not a blanket rejection of all scripture, but it’s a serious indictment of human tampering. The Qur’an distinguishes between:

Original revelation (Torah, Gospel),

Current interpretations,

Textual alterations.

Muslims believe the Bible today contains remnants of truth, but not the original, unchanged revelations. Even Christian scholars (e.g., Bart Ehrman) admit that while core theology might be preserved, textual variants, redactions, and later additions (like the long ending of Mark or the Comma Johanneum) do exist. That alone supports the Qur’an’s point: God’s Word is perfect—human transmission is not.

\---

✝️ 2. On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

We love Jesus deeply in Islam—as the Messiah, born of a virgin, a miracle worker, and a prophet of God. But not as divine.

John 1:1 and John 20:28 are interpretive verses shaped by the theology of later authors. The phrase “the Word was God” is debated even within Christian scholarship (some translations note, “the Word was divine”). As for Thomas saying “My Lord and my God,” it’s a proclamation of awe—but in Semitic usage, such expressions could be reverence, not doctrinal statements.

John 8:58 and the use of “I AM” is significant—but again, context matters. Jesus speaks in metaphor and layered spiritual language. The claim “Before Abraham was, I am” can express preeminence, not literal preexistence. Prophets often spoke as representatives of God’s timeless word.

Mark 2 and the forgiving of sins: Jesus says, “Your sins are forgiven,” which could be interpreted as prophetic declaration—like Nathan with David (2 Samuel 12:13). It is the Pharisees who assume divinity here—not necessarily Jesus confirming it.

Receiving worship: The Greek proskuneo is used for kings, prophets, and even angels (Revelation 3:9). Jesus never demands worship—he prays to God, submits to Him, and even says:

\&gt; “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

The Islamic view is that Jesus was a servant of God (Abdullah), empowered with miracles and authority—but never claimed divinity for himself.

\---

⚰️ 3. On the Crucifixion

Surah 4:157 is clear:

\&gt; “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them…”

This is not denying that a crucifixion occurred—it denies that Jesus himself was crucified. The Qur’an suggests a case of mistaken identity or substitution.

Historical evidence from Tacitus, Josephus, and others confirms that people believed Jesus was crucified. But belief ≠ truth. History records what people perceived, not necessarily what actually happened. And these sources are not eyewitnesses—they wrote decades later.

Muslims believe God saved Jesus and raised him—just as God saved Abraham from fire or Moses from Pharaoh. That is not a denial of history but an assertion of divine intervention.

\---

⚖️ 4. On Salvation: Faith and Works

Isaiah 53, Passover, and Levitical laws do involve sacrifice—but always of animals, not humans. Substitutionary atonement of an innocent human being for the guilty was never the teaching of the prophets.

Even in Isaiah 53, the servant is seen as misunderstood—“we considered him stricken by God,” which aligns more with the Islamic view: that Jesus suffered, but was not sacrificed by God.

The Qur’an teaches that God forgives sins directly, without intermediaries:

\&gt; “Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.” (Surah 4:48)

No soul bears the burden of another. That’s divine justice and mercy—together.

\---

🕊️ 5. On the Spirit of Truth

Jesus refers to someone who:

Will not speak on his own authority,

Will declare what is to come,

Will glorify Jesus.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) fits this more than the Holy Spirit:

He spoke only what was revealed (Qur’an 53:3–4),

He came after Jesus,

He clarified and honored Jesus as Messiah—though not divine.

The Holy Spirit already existed during Jesus’ life. He was present at Jesus’ baptism and in the disciples (Luke 1:15, John 20:22). So why would Jesus speak of him as someone who will come later?

\---

🧬 6. On God’s Nature and the Trinity

You’re right: “The Lord is One” is foundational in both Deuteronomy and the Qur’an.

But in Islam, “One” means absolutely indivisible. No persons, no divisions.

Surah 112 perfectly describes God’s essence:

\&gt; “He does not beget, nor is He begotten.”

This directly contradicts the idea of the “Son” being eternally begotten or God becoming man. God, in Islam, is transcendent and unlike His creation.

Surah 5:116 does not misunderstand the Christian Trinity. It addresses certain sects of Christians who elevated Mary in worship. It’s not the only Qur’anic description of Christian beliefs—but a response to specific theological practices in 7th-century Arabia.

As for the term “Tawheed,” you're right—it’s a theological term, like Trinity. But the concept of pure monotheism is explicitly and repeatedly taught in the Qur’an. Whereas the Trinity as a concept is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

\---

💬 Final Thoughts

You said: “If Jesus is not God, then why did He speak like God, act like God, and accept worship?”

From the Islamic view: He spoke on behalf of God, acted by God’s will, and was misunderstood by some who projected divinity onto him.

And as for the Bible’s preservation—yes, we believe elements of truth remain. But the Qur’an came not to “contradict,” but to correct and complete the message of all prophets, including Jesus.

The Qur’an isn’t a rejection of Jesus—it’s a restoration of his true mission: to call people to worship the One God.

\&gt; “Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam.” (Surah 3:19)

\---

A Final Invitation

Let’s both keep seeking. You’ve read the Qur’an—thank you for that.

I invite you again to read it with fresh eyes—read Surah Al-Ma’idah, Surah Al-Maryam, and Surah Al-Ikhlas. Ask: does this message reflect the purity and majesty of God?

And may the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—peace be upon them all—guide us to the truth and keep our hearts sincere.

Ameen.

Thwasin

15 bumps

thwasin · 4/11/2025, 2:06:53 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

Absolutely, I appreciate your sincerity and the respectful tone you’ve brought to this conversation. Let me respond to your thoughtful points in the same spirit of mutual understanding and truth-seeking:

\---

📖 On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You’re right to point out that the Qur’an speaks of the Torah and the Gospel as revelations from God. In fact, Islam affirms that these were indeed divinely revealed. However, there’s an important distinction: the Qur’an never accuses the original revelations of being false—it critiques what people have done to them over time.

Surah 2:79 says:

\&gt; “So woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ to exchange it for a small price...”

And Surah 4:46:

\&gt; “Among the Jews are those who distort words from their proper usages...”

These verses don't deny that divine books were given—they highlight human corruption: additions, omissions, or misinterpretations for worldly gains. So when Surah 5:47 says, “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein,” it’s not endorsing all current versions of the Bible, but rather calling people to the true message originally sent.

As for Surah 10:94, the scholars explain that this verse addresses those among the People of the Book who were sincere seekers—those who still held parts of the truth. It’s also seen as rhetorical, affirming the Qur'an’s truth by pointing to the past signs that still aligned with its message.

Regarding manuscript evidence: it’s true there are many ancient copies of the Bible, but the sheer number of variants between them is well documented—thousands of differences in wording, inclusion or exclusion of verses, etc. This isn’t necessarily “fraud,” but it does confirm what the Qur’an alludes to: human hands touched divine texts. Even prominent Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman acknowledge this.

\---

✝️ On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

Muslims deeply love and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). We believe in his miraculous birth, his messiahship, and his ascension—but not in his divinity or crucifixion.

John 17:3 is key: “That they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” Jesus distinguishes between himself and “the only true God.”

As for John 8:58—“Before Abraham was, I am”—this can be interpreted metaphorically. Jesus pre-existed in the knowledge and plan of God. Similar expressions exist for other prophets (e.g., Jeremiah 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”). That doesn’t mean literal pre-existence.

Regarding Jesus forgiving sins or receiving worship: in Jewish tradition, prophets and judges could declare forgiveness on God’s behalf (see 2 Samuel 12:13). And in Greek, the word translated as “worship” (proskuneo) can also mean to honor or bow—like one would before a king—not always divine worship.

The real question is: did Jesus ever clearly and unambiguously say, “I am God”? In the Qur’an, Jesus says:

\&gt; “Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Surah 19:36)

That’s a direct statement. Contrast that with all the interpretations needed to prove divinity from the New Testament.

\---

⚖️ On Salvation: Faith and Works

Islam teaches that God is both just and merciful. Yes, one sin can separate us—but one sincere repentance can bring us back. God says in the Qur’an:

\&gt; “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins...” (Surah 39:53)

The Christian idea that someone else can be punished for my sins—while noble in its intention—doesn’t align with God’s justice. As the Bible itself says: “The soul who sins is the one who will die.” (Ezekiel 18:20)

Islam sees works as evidence of sincere faith—not a point system. It’s not about earning paradise—it’s about striving for righteousness while trusting in God’s mercy.

\---

🕊️ On the Spirit of Truth in John 16:13

Yes, Christians believe this refers to the Holy Spirit. But there are reasons Muslims view this differently.

Jesus said:

\&gt; “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth...” (John 16:12–13)

This “Spirit”:

Speaks what He hears.

Declares things to come.

Glorifies Jesus.

Guides into all truth.

This sounds more like a prophet than a spirit that lives inside believers. Also, Jesus had already spoken about the Holy Spirit (John 14), yet still refers to someone coming later. Muhammad (peace be upon him) fits this role:

He spoke only what God revealed to him (Qur’an 53:3–4).

He clarified the truth of Jesus and glorified him as the Messiah.

He brought guidance for all humanity, not just for the Israelites.

\---

🪙 On God’s Nature

Surah 112 is the clearest expression of Islamic monotheism:

\&gt; “Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

The idea that God has “persons” within Him doesn’t align with this clear statement. The Trinity is never explicitly described in the Bible either. God is absolutely one—not three-in-one, but One in the purest, indivisible sense.

\---

💬 Final Thoughts

I truly respect your invitation. And I appreciate your call to read the Gospel of John—I have, many times. Likewise, I invite you to read the Qur’an with the same sincerity, especially Surah Al-Ikhlas, Al-Maryam, and Al-Baqarah.

Islam doesn't deny Jesus. It restores his true message: calling people to worship God alone, without partners. That’s the message of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—peace be upon them all.

May God guide both of us to truth, increase us in love and understanding, and bring us closer to Him.

Ameen.

19 bumps

thwasin · 3/22/2025, 4:17:08 PM · permalink

on Deceptive Leaders in endoftheworld

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thwasin · 3/22/2025, 3:57:51 PM · permalink

on The Antichrist is ALREADY HERE in endoftheworld

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thwasin · 3/20/2025, 12:00:59 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

I truly appreciate the depth of your response and the sincerity with which you present your beliefs. Engaging in these discussions with mutual respect is crucial, as we both seek to understand God's truth. Let me address your key points from the Islamic perspective.

On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You quoted verses from the Quran that state no one can change the words of Allah (Surah 6:115, 18:27). These refer to God’s ultimate decree and His final revelation, the Quran, which He has promised to protect (Surah 15:9). However, this does not mean that previous scriptures were immune to human alterations.

The Quran explicitly states that certain groups from among the People of the Book altered the scriptures:

Surah 2:79 – “So woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ to exchange it for a small price! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.”

Surah 4:46 – “Among the Jews are those who distort words from their proper places…”

Even Christian scholars acknowledge textual variations in the Bible. The existence of different versions (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) and textual issues (e.g., the ending of Mark, the Comma Johanneum) demonstrate that changes have occurred.

Regarding Surah 5:47 (“Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein”), this does not mean the Injil remains fully intact. Rather, it commands Christians to judge by what was originally revealed. However, the true teachings of Jesus have been mixed with human writings over time.

On Jesus' Crucifixion and Divinity

The Quran categorically denies the crucifixion of Jesus:

Surah 4:157-158 – “And \[for\] their saying, ‘Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.’ And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but \[another\] was made to resemble him to them…”

The claim that Jesus is divine contradicts his own words in the Bible:

Mark 12:29 – “The most important \[commandment\],” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.’”

John 17:3 – “And this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.”

Jesus repeatedly refers to himself as sent by God, distinguishing himself from God. If he were God, why would he pray to God (Matthew 26:39)? Why would he say the Father is greater than him (John 14:28)?

Regarding the crucifixion, historical records (Josephus, Tacitus) mention Jesus' execution, but these are not divinely inspired sources. The Quran presents an alternative truth: Jesus was saved, and his return will clarify misunderstandings.

On Salvation: Faith vs. Works

You quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 (“For by grace you have been saved through faith…”), but the Bible itself emphasizes the necessity of actions:

James 2:17 – “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

Matthew 7:21 – “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father.”

Islam teaches that salvation comes through faith in God, sincere repentance, and righteous deeds (Surah 103:1-3). Good deeds do not purchase salvation, but they reflect one's faith. Even in Christianity, Jesus commands believers to obey God’s laws (Matthew 5:17-20).

Your analogy of a judge does not fully apply. A just judge may punish a criminal, but God is not a mere human judge—He is the Most Merciful. He forgives sincere repentance without requiring someone else to take the punishment (Surah 39:53).

On the Quran as a "Final Revelation"

Jesus foretold the coming of another after him:

John 16:13 – “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”

Christians interpret this as the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was already present (Luke 1:35). This prophecy better fits Muhammad (peace be upon him), who brought the final guidance.

If the Bible was complete, why did Jesus himself say:

John 16:12 – “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.”

This indicates that further revelation was needed. The Quran fulfills and corrects previous scriptures, ensuring God's message is preserved.

Conclusion: The One True God

Islam and Christianity both call for devotion to God, but Islam strictly upholds monotheism. Jesus never said, "I am God, worship me." Instead, he pointed to God alone.

Surah 112:1-4 – “Say, He is Allah, \[who is\] One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

This verse summarizes the pure monotheism that all prophets preached, including Jesus.

I deeply appreciate this discussion and your prayers. I also pray that God guides both of us to the truth. I encourage you to read the Quran, especially Surah Maryam (19), which speaks about Jesus and his mission. Let’s continue seeking the truth with sincerity.

May God bless you and increase us both in knowledge and wisdom.

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thwasin · 3/17/2025, 5:50:29 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

I truly appreciate the sincerity, and respect in your message. I’m happy to continue this discussion in the spirit of mutual understanding and seeking the Truth.

On the Integrity of the Scriptures  
You raised an important question: Who decides what is true and false? From an Islamic perspective, only God has the absolute authority to determine truth. The Quran acknowledges the Torah (Tawrat), Psalms (Zabur), and Gospel (Injil) as divine revelations, but it also states that over time, human alterations—whether intentional or unintentional—have entered these scriptures (Surah 2:79).

Regarding Surah 6:115 (“No one can change His words”), Islamic scholars explain that this refers to God's ultimate decree and preserved revelation, such as the Quran, which God has promised to protect (Surah 15:9). However, this does not contradict the fact that previous revelations given to earlier peoples were entrusted to human scribes, who, as history shows, introduced changes over time. The existence of multiple Bible versions, contradictions between manuscripts, and historical evidence of textual changes (such as the ending of Mark or the Comma Johanneum) suggest that the Bible, as it exists today, is not in its original form.

Islam does not reject Jesus (peace be upon him) but upholds a different understanding of his mission. The Quran confirms his role as the Messiah, a prophet, and a servant of God (Surah 3:45-49), but it rejects the notion of his divinity or his crucifixion (Surah 4:157-158). Instead, it teaches that God saved him and raised him up, preserving him for his second coming.

On Jesus and His Message

You mentioned that Jesus came not just to bring laws but to fulfill them, which is a beautiful perspective. However, Islam teaches that Jesus, like all prophets, came to call people to the worship of the One True God and to guide them to righteousness (Surah 3:50). He did not come to abolish the law but to affirm God's commandments, just as the Quran came to confirm and clarify the previous scriptures.

The verse you quoted from John 3:16 is central to Christian theology, but from an Islamic standpoint, God does not beget nor is He begotten (Surah 112:3). The idea of God having a son contradicts His absolute oneness and self-sufficiency. Islam teaches that salvation comes not through the sacrifice of another but through sincere faith and righteous deeds (Surah 103:1-3).

On War and Spreading the Faith

I fully agree that Jesus’ teachings on love and forgiveness are profound. Islam also emphasizes mercy, peace, and patience. The Quran teaches:

"Repel evil with that which is better, and you will see that the one between whom and you there was enmity will become your close friend." (Surah 41:34)

However, we must also consider the historical context. While Jesus’ followers were a persecuted minority at the time, Muhammad (peace be upon him) led a community that faced severe oppression, exile, and war. The Quran permits self-defense (Surah 22:39-40) but does not command believers to spread Islam through force. Many historical expansions of Islamic rule were political and military, but conversion to Islam has largely been through preaching and personal choice. The spread of Christianity also included periods of violence (such as the Crusades and forced conversions in colonial times), so history shows that both religions have complex pasts.

On Women and Modesty

The story of the woman caught in adultery is a beautiful example of mercy, but Islam does not teach harshness either. The Quran repeatedly calls for kindness and forgiveness, even toward sinners (Surah 24:22). While Islamic law includes punishments, these require strict conditions and are rarely applied. More importantly, Islam places strong emphasis on personal repentance and God's mercy.

Regarding modesty, both Islam and Christianity promote inner and outer purity. The key difference is that Islam prescribes specific guidelines for modesty in dress and behavior, whereas Christianity leaves it more to individual interpretation. Both traditions value the dignity of women and seek to protect them from exploitation.

On the Quran Replacing the Bible

You made a great analogy about truth not being like human technology, and I completely agree. However, to correct my previous point Islam does not view the Quran as an "update" to previous scriptures in the sense of making them obsolete. Instead, it is the final and complete message to the entirety of mankind, preserving and correcting what was revealed before (Surah 5:48).

The Bible itself speaks of later revelations (John 16:13), and Jesus foretold the coming of another messenger after him. Many Muslims believe this refers to Muhammad (peace be upon him), who came with guidance for all of humanity. The Quran is not a contradiction but a continuation of God's message, just as the New Testament built upon the Old Testament.

A Shared Pursuit of Truth

I deeply appreciate your invitation to read the Gospel of John, and I fully support seeking the truth with an open heart. I, too, invite you to read the Quran, especially chapters like Surah Maryam (19), which speaks about Jesus and his mother, Mary (peace be upon them both).

Jesus’ words in John 14:6 are powerful: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." From an Islamic perspective, this means following Jesus’ true teachings—worshiping the One True God and living righteously.

I respect your prayers for me, and I also pray that God guides both of us to His truth. May He bless you with wisdom, peace, and clarity in your search.

Let’s continue this dialogue with sincerity and respect. I would love to hear your thoughts.

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thwasin · 3/12/2025, 7:53:33 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

To answer your first question, Islam prohibits the above act completely and utterly and Allah has described a punishment for those who commits oppression and murder unjustly. Why do they do it, numerous reasons: Political or economic power, an example of this would be the conquest of constantinople, misinformation, cherry picking and psyop, hence the terrorist organisations of ISIS, Al qaeda, the Wahabis and the Salafis, which were mainly funded by the west but there were also those who out of their overzealousness were turned away from the truth and misguided because it's like a tribal mentality, not everyone has a great level of intellect and will natural trust those in power to be true and follow them whether right or wrong, so we also have groups like the Muatazilite, and other extreme groups but in the modern age it's mainly the west who are funding these groups. Lastly, the permissible way of doing this although there is no compulsion to Believe in the religion is via Jihad, Holy war, which is Only Valid if there is oppression in another land and the people ask for help, to defend against attackers and those who are enemies and offensively to expand the territory not for world gain but to spread the message of Islam and this can be seen as controversial but there are strict conditions that must be upheld when on the offensive, non-conbatants will not be harmed, no force in complusion of the religion, if they desire peace you must give them peace, etc. War will always occur, it's in man's nature but under the commandments of the Lord God it will not be done except for greater benefit as can be seen in history where countries have improved with muslim rule, when done properly of course. Nowadays, there are those who come with boxing gloves to force people to convert which is entirely wrong and condemable, and we are prohibited from criticising or insulting other people's faith or religion.   
Question no.2  Yes, this seems like a biased and emotional question but I will answer it with respect. The women in Islam are given much more freedom and rights than ever before in history, with the advent of the modern age with so called "liberalism" that is no freedom it is simply the glorification of vain desires and cardinal human nature, appealing to degenerousy and vulgarity. But I will not go into political ideologies that's a whole separate discussion. But it's a choice for women to cover themselves and no man is allowed to hit another women except for a flick on the forehead of they do wrong. If they choose to wear such revealing clothing which in any culture is pretty much immoral and disgusting, regardless of religion, but it is their choice but that does not make it any less shameful and obscene, this is not simply Islam, this is common sense. Wearing tight, exposed clothes, what even is the benefit? I simply cannot comprehend, I've seen women in below 10 degrees Celsius wear crop tops and shorts outside? This is not even a religious thing, this is simply questioning whether or not they value their lives over fashion?   
Lastly, the Quran came down to validate the truth within all the Holy Books and to leave out the falsehood that was brought such as the lending of interest to a non-jew but not to a fellow jew, or to completely abandon the Sabbath, tithe, and other religious duties because Jesus (PBUH) died on a cross for our sins which does not seem to make sense at all, especially if you remove the teachings of Paul and focus on the teachings at the time of Jesus. But it reinforces the Truth and brings the final reveleation, the best Law for Mankind to follow which will be for the benefit of overall society if you actually look at the rulings objectively. It's to provide a guide on the best way to live this life for the benefit of this life and the hereafter. The Quran simply renders the other Holy Books as obsolete the same way an iPhone 16 makes the iPhone 15 obsolete, as it is more refined and updated and a final product. This does not mean we condem, disrespect, falsify everything in every other Holy Book, no. We simply say everything that is ever needed is in the Quran but we can still look at the other books for educational purposes and look at it from the viewpoint of the Quran to hold it in judgement over the other books to validate the Truth. Take for example the prerequisites till the Last Day in Revelations where it talks about the Beast, the Dragon with Multiple crowns, the prostitute, the vision of Daniel and I cannot remember the other Prophet's name. But we can piece together these scriptures and see how it supports the Quran in reference to the Last Day. Where essentially it predicts the rise and fall of empires, the widespread of calamities, the precursor to the Antichrist, then eventually the return of the Messiah and the Last Day.  
Hopefully I was able to answer your questions, and I ask Allah to forgive me if I have made any error or misinformation. I humbly request you to simply study for yourself the Quran and the religion from both perspectives and I also invite you to read the Quran with an open mind, perhaps even listen to it in Arabic with the translation. May God show you to the Truth that you seek.

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thwasin · 3/12/2025, 7:19:05 PM · permalink

on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

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on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

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on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

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on Religious people will ban you and murder you. in freethinkers

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thwasin · 3/8/2025, 6:40:49 AM · permalink

on This book exposes the Jews (Banned in 30+ Countries) in books

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on This book exposes the Jews (Banned in 30+ Countries) in books

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thwasin · 3/8/2025, 6:35:02 AM · permalink

on [deleted by author] in islam

Yes if they're government is rested on the foundation of faith and God, not on politics, fake "democracy", and people's Biases because majority of the time these people will see Islam as a threat to their tyranny which in essence is what Islam was designed to be. To give power to the power and to destroy corruption. If the government is Christian and sticks to the traditions or any other faith, Islam would not pose as much as a threat and would be welcome unless they see the idea of another religion being propagated as a threat due to their own lack of belief and faith in their own religion. Because in Islamic countries , we can have other religions because we Know with certainity our religion is the truth, our people have faith, and keep close ties. If they wish to convert no problem. Whereas in another nation if they have weak faith in their own religion, something as strong and unified as Islam would be seen as a threat. But to be fair in modern times, Islam has been de-unified but thats another story. Take Russia which is a good ezample of Muslims living there, which is a Strong Christian Nation that believes in God. Secularism is the only form of governance that would not be able to achieve this.  
No.2. No, Islam means (to submit to the will of the One God), you can do that in an island somewhere. The religious law will not apply in a land where there is no Islamic caliphate. But, the Sharia on oneself and abiding the commandments of God is obligatory in terms of practises your salah and fasting etc. There are different laws for Muslims living in non-muslim lands and we have to abide by the law of the land and practise our own duties to God. Unless a nation is specifically preventing us from doing anything then No, we can practises True Islam, wherever. The communities being fostered with Muslims make it easier to practises with one another and build bonds and hold each other accountable and but the Sharia Law cannot be inposed as far as I am aware, if the country is not Led by a Muslim. And since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the whole Sharia Law has not been implemented in its entirety, even they went away from it and became corrupt during the end periods hence the massacres of Jews and Christians and other abominations the empire had done but nevertheless, it was the rulers at the time fault not the entirerty or the people. None of the gulf nations uphold the Sharia properly because if they did, their slave workers, their unlawful wealth, their corruption and deceit, their nationalism would be gone and we would have unity, but they of course would not want that. In fact to elaborate, even in these so called "muslim states" True Islam is being overshadowed by, secularism and is being attacked by these other doctrines of Muslims which were populated by the British after the collapse of the empire. And the people may still adhere to True Sunni Islam, but the leaders are not and have persecuted many of those who have tried to go against them and the scholars who have opened up.

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thwasin · 3/7/2025, 7:42:21 PM · permalink

on I can't wait... in freethinkers

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on Islam and pedophilia in islam

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Deceptive Leaders

The Antichrist is ALREADY HERE

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