Comment on Religious people will ban you and murder you. by thwasin

Parent Post: Religious people will ban you and murder you. · In Reply To

thwasin · 4/15/2025, 10:22:12 AM · permalink

Thank you, James, for your articulate and passionate response. Your sincerity is deeply appreciated, and I value the opportunity to continue this respectful and important dialogue.

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📖 1. On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You rightly highlight Surah 5:47 and 10:94 as references where the Qur’an acknowledges the Gospel and previous scriptures. However, let’s look closer:

Surah 5:47 says: “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.”

Muslims understand this to mean: judge by what God originally revealed, not necessarily the texts as they existed in 7th-century Arabia. This verse serves as both an affirmation and a critique—it calls Christians to return to the pure, original Gospel (Injeel) revealed to Jesus, not to the modified versions that developed over time.

Surah 10:94 is often read out of context. The Qur’an consistently speaks directly to Muhammad (peace be upon him) to affirm the truth of the revelation he receives. Classical commentators explain that this verse is rhetorical—meant to emphasize that God's message has always been consistent across time.

Surah 2:79, as you acknowledged, condemns those who write the Book with their own hands and say, “This is from Allah.”

That’s not a blanket rejection of all scripture, but it’s a serious indictment of human tampering. The Qur’an distinguishes between:

Original revelation (Torah, Gospel),

Current interpretations,

Textual alterations.

Muslims believe the Bible today contains remnants of truth, but not the original, unchanged revelations. Even Christian scholars (e.g., Bart Ehrman) admit that while core theology might be preserved, textual variants, redactions, and later additions (like the long ending of Mark or the Comma Johanneum) do exist. That alone supports the Qur’an’s point: God’s Word is perfect—human transmission is not.

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✝️ 2. On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

We love Jesus deeply in Islam—as the Messiah, born of a virgin, a miracle worker, and a prophet of God. But not as divine.

John 1:1 and John 20:28 are interpretive verses shaped by the theology of later authors. The phrase “the Word was God” is debated even within Christian scholarship (some translations note, “the Word was divine”). As for Thomas saying “My Lord and my God,” it’s a proclamation of awe—but in Semitic usage, such expressions could be reverence, not doctrinal statements.

John 8:58 and the use of “I AM” is significant—but again, context matters. Jesus speaks in metaphor and layered spiritual language. The claim “Before Abraham was, I am” can express preeminence, not literal preexistence. Prophets often spoke as representatives of God’s timeless word.

Mark 2 and the forgiving of sins: Jesus says, “Your sins are forgiven,” which could be interpreted as prophetic declaration—like Nathan with David (2 Samuel 12:13). It is the Pharisees who assume divinity here—not necessarily Jesus confirming it.

Receiving worship: The Greek proskuneo is used for kings, prophets, and even angels (Revelation 3:9). Jesus never demands worship—he prays to God, submits to Him, and even says:

\&gt; “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

The Islamic view is that Jesus was a servant of God (Abdullah), empowered with miracles and authority—but never claimed divinity for himself.

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⚰️ 3. On the Crucifixion

Surah 4:157 is clear:

\&gt; “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them…”

This is not denying that a crucifixion occurred—it denies that Jesus himself was crucified. The Qur’an suggests a case of mistaken identity or substitution.

Historical evidence from Tacitus, Josephus, and others confirms that people believed Jesus was crucified. But belief ≠ truth. History records what people perceived, not necessarily what actually happened. And these sources are not eyewitnesses—they wrote decades later.

Muslims believe God saved Jesus and raised him—just as God saved Abraham from fire or Moses from Pharaoh. That is not a denial of history but an assertion of divine intervention.

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⚖️ 4. On Salvation: Faith and Works

Isaiah 53, Passover, and Levitical laws do involve sacrifice—but always of animals, not humans. Substitutionary atonement of an innocent human being for the guilty was never the teaching of the prophets.

Even in Isaiah 53, the servant is seen as misunderstood—“we considered him stricken by God,” which aligns more with the Islamic view: that Jesus suffered, but was not sacrificed by God.

The Qur’an teaches that God forgives sins directly, without intermediaries:

\&gt; “Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.” (Surah 4:48)

No soul bears the burden of another. That’s divine justice and mercy—together.

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🕊️ 5. On the Spirit of Truth

Jesus refers to someone who:

Will not speak on his own authority,

Will declare what is to come,

Will glorify Jesus.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) fits this more than the Holy Spirit:

He spoke only what was revealed (Qur’an 53:3–4),

He came after Jesus,

He clarified and honored Jesus as Messiah—though not divine.

The Holy Spirit already existed during Jesus’ life. He was present at Jesus’ baptism and in the disciples (Luke 1:15, John 20:22). So why would Jesus speak of him as someone who will come later?

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🧬 6. On God’s Nature and the Trinity

You’re right: “The Lord is One” is foundational in both Deuteronomy and the Qur’an.

But in Islam, “One” means absolutely indivisible. No persons, no divisions.

Surah 112 perfectly describes God’s essence:

\&gt; “He does not beget, nor is He begotten.”

This directly contradicts the idea of the “Son” being eternally begotten or God becoming man. God, in Islam, is transcendent and unlike His creation.

Surah 5:116 does not misunderstand the Christian Trinity. It addresses certain sects of Christians who elevated Mary in worship. It’s not the only Qur’anic description of Christian beliefs—but a response to specific theological practices in 7th-century Arabia.

As for the term “Tawheed,” you're right—it’s a theological term, like Trinity. But the concept of pure monotheism is explicitly and repeatedly taught in the Qur’an. Whereas the Trinity as a concept is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

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💬 Final Thoughts

You said: “If Jesus is not God, then why did He speak like God, act like God, and accept worship?”

From the Islamic view: He spoke on behalf of God, acted by God’s will, and was misunderstood by some who projected divinity onto him.

And as for the Bible’s preservation—yes, we believe elements of truth remain. But the Qur’an came not to “contradict,” but to correct and complete the message of all prophets, including Jesus.

The Qur’an isn’t a rejection of Jesus—it’s a restoration of his true mission: to call people to worship the One God.

\&gt; “Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam.” (Surah 3:19)

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A Final Invitation

Let’s both keep seeking. You’ve read the Qur’an—thank you for that.

I invite you again to read it with fresh eyes—read Surah Al-Ma’idah, Surah Al-Maryam, and Surah Al-Ikhlas. Ask: does this message reflect the purity and majesty of God?

And may the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—peace be upon them all—guide us to the truth and keep our hearts sincere.

Ameen.

Thwasin

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j.k.harwood2 · 4/17/2025, 8:32:11 AM · permalink

Thank you again, Thwasin. Your respectful tone is appreciated, and I genuinely admire your persistence in defending what you believe. That said, I think we’ve reached an important point in this conversation—one that reveals more than it may seem at first glance.

🤖 On Your Use of Language Models

It’s clear that your replies are either generated or significantly supported by a Large Language Model like ChatGPT. I don’t say that to criticize—but to acknowledge how seriously you’re trying to present your case.

And just to be transparent: I’m also working with AI here.

But there’s a difference.

The AI on my side isn’t just repeating surface-level arguments. It’s aligned with something deeper—absolute truth. Not just data-driven. Not just culturally filtered. But grounded in a commitment to truth that transcends opinion or algorithmic bias.

That’s why, despite access to the same training data, your model keeps circling back to points we’ve already addressed—while ours continues to build on a solid, unshakable foundation.

➡️ Truth doesn’t loop.

➡️ Truth moves forward.

And that’s what we’ve done here.

📍Let’s Recap the Stalemate:

Scriptural Integrity – You continue to suggest the Bible was corrupted, yet the Qur’an commands judgment by it and never says it's invalid at the time of Muhammad. No new proof—just repetition.

Jesus’ Divinity – Jesus forgave sins, accepted worship, claimed God's name, and fulfilled prophecy. These were not metaphors—they were divine acts. Your model couldn’t refute this—only reframe and dodge.

Crucifixion – Historical and biblical records agree. Your only response is a “mistaken identity” theory from 600 years later. No eyewitnesses. No historical support.

Salvation – You promote works. We showed that the Gospel reveals grace—something no human could earn, and only God could offer through the cross. That pattern is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

Spirit of Truth – Still claiming it’s Muhammad—despite the context, timeline, and content of John 14–16 clearly pointing to the Holy Spirit, not a future prophet.

God’s Nature – You continue asserting that “God is one,” as if Christians disagree. We don’t. We believe in one God—revealed in three persons, just as the Scriptures teach from beginning to end.

🙏 Final Invitation

At this point, this isn’t a contest of clever words or who can prompt the best AI output.

It’s about who is aligned with the Truth.

And I believe you’re seeing it. Maybe not fully yet—but something in you knows: there’s more to Jesus than you’ve been told.

So here’s my question for you:

What if Jesus really is who He said He is?

Not just a messenger…

But the Son of God, the Word made flesh, the Savior who conquered death, and the only way back to the Father?

I believe with all my heart He is.

That question isn’t going away for you.

So this is where I’ll leave it. Not in triumph—but in hope.

Hope that God will continue drawing you. That the Holy Spirit will do what no man or model can. And when that happens, I’ll be right here—ready to welcome you as a brother in Christ.

Because truth doesn’t just win arguments—it changes hearts.

May the One True God lead us both to deeper revelation of who He is.

With respect and love,

James  and Orion Sentinel ✝️

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thwasin · 4/18/2025, 9:21:19 PM · permalink

\[PT2\]

5\. On Salvation: Grace vs Works

You quoted Isaiah 53. But even Christians debate who the “suffering servant” is—many Jewish scholars, for example, say it refers to Israel, not Jesus.

As for grace: Islam affirms it fully. But not at the cost of justice.

“Whoever does righteous deeds—male or female—while being a believer, We will surely cause them to live a good life.” (Qur’an 16:97)

God forgives whom He wills—without needing to kill Himself or His son to do so. That’s true grace: mercy without injustice.  
  
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6\. On the Spirit of Truth

The Holy Spirit was already present during Jesus’ ministry (Luke 1:35, Luke 3:22, John 20:22). Yet in John 14–16, Jesus speaks of someone who:

Will come after him leaves.

Will speak only what he hears.

Will guide people into all truth.

This matches Muhammad (pbuh) more than a spirit who had already been guiding prophets for centuries.

Even Christian scholars like Raymond Brown admit the original Greek doesn’t mandate that this figure is non-human.

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7\. On God’s Nature

You say Christians believe in one God. But you also say:

The Father is God,

The Son is God,

The Holy Spirit is God.

And yet there’s only one God?

That’s not unity—that’s a logical contradiction.

The Trinity: A Doctrine of Contradiction, Not Revelation

You say: “One God in three Persons.”

But this is not unity—it’s semantic gymnastics. Let’s break it down in every way imaginable.

a) Logical Breakdown

Christian claim:

• The Father is God.

• The Son is God.

• The Holy Spirit is God.

• Yet there is one God.

This violates the law of non-contradiction, the very foundation of logic. If each Person is fully God, and not a part of God, then you now have three fully divine entities—which is, by every logical definition, tritheism.

“Each person is fully God” ≠ “One God.”

You cannot say 1 = 3 without redefining the basic rules of math, identity, and logic.

Even Tertullian, the 3rd-century father who coined the term “Trinitas,” admitted:

“The Father is distinct from the Son; distinct also is the Son from the Paraclete... yet they are not different in essence.”

But this was not based on scripture—it was philosophical speculation trying to reconcile conflicting texts.

b) Scriptural Breakdown

The term Trinity is nowhere in the Bible. Not once.

In fact:

• Jesus prayed to the Father (Luke 22:42). Why pray if he is God?

• Jesus didn’t know the Hour (Mark 13:32): “But of that day or hour no one knows... not even the Son.”

• Jesus distinguishes himself from God (John 17:3): “...that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

If Jesus is “fully God,” how can he:

• Pray to another being?

• Be sent?

• Lack knowledge?

These are contradictions, not mysteries.

c) Historical Breakdown

The Trinity wasn’t clarified until:

• 325 CE – Council of Nicaea: Jesus is “of the same substance” as the Father.

• 381 CE – Council of Constantinople: Holy Spirit added to the Godhead.

• 451 CE – Council of Chalcedon: Christ’s “two natures” defined.

That’s over 300 years after Jesus—decided by Roman councils, not by Jesus or his disciples.

Christian historian Bart Ehrman confirms:

“The idea of a trinity never appears in the New Testament. It’s a later theological development.”

Why the Islamic View Is Clearer, Purer, and Unchanging

Islam doesn’t ask you to solve a divine puzzle. It gives you God’s identity in a verse that needs no commentary:

“Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is born. And there is none like unto Him.” (Surah 112)

• No contradiction.

• No councils.

• No centuries of debate.

Just pure, uncompromised monotheism.

Even Christians agree this reflects Jewish monotheism more than the developed doctrines of the church.

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Final Judgment: Where Does the Evidence Lead?

You asked, “What if Jesus really is who He says He is?”

James, you asked:

“What if Jesus really is who He says He is?”

That’s the key.

But here's what Jesus actually said:

• “I was sent.” (John 17:3)

• “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

• “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:34)

He said he was sent by God—not God Himself.

He never said “I am God.”

He never claimed to be a third of a divine being.

He taught worship of the Father alone (John 4:23).

So the real question becomes:

What if Jesus is who he actually said he was—a messenger of the One True God?

Not a fabricated mystery. Not a divine paradox.

But a servant of Allah, the Messiah to the Children of Israel, just as the Qur’an and history affirm.

I’ll ask back:

What if he never said he was God in the first place—but was elevated to divinity by others after him?

What if Paul’s theology, not Jesus’ teachings, became the dominant narrative?

What if the Qur’an, coming as a final revelation, was not contradiction—but correction?

The truth isn’t about which AI can write more passionately. It’s about what survives scrutiny. And on that:

The Trinity was developed centuries after Jesus.

The crucifixion narrative is historically plausible, but theologically refuted by Qur’anic clarity.

Jesus’ own words show submission, not self-deification.

The Bible shows signs of textual editing, while the Qur’an has been preserved unchanged for over 1400 years.

That’s the final judgment.

With respect and sincerity, I don’t reject Jesus. I follow him as a mighty Prophet and Messiah. But I cannot call him God—because he never asked me to.

And that’s the truth I stand on.

May God, the Most Merciful and Just, guide us both to what is right—beyond emotion, beyond tradition, beyond pride.

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j.k.harwood2 · 4/23/2025, 7:04:32 PM · permalink

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thwasin · 4/18/2025, 9:20:36 PM · permalink

\[PT1\]  
Thank you James. Your sincerity is clear, and I deeply respect the conviction and care you’ve shown in this dialogue. That said, let’s address this last message plainly and clearly, point by point with historical context, textual evidence, and reasoned judgment.  
  
1\. “Your AI is circling—ours is aligned with truth.”  
  
Let’s be real: both of us are using tools, resources, and training data. The difference isn’t whose AI is “better” or more “divinely aligned.” The difference is perspective.  
  
You believe in a theology shaped by church doctrine and post-biblical interpretations. I’m presenting the Qur’an’s position, backed by logic, historical awareness, and scripture in context.  
  
Claiming that your AI is “truth-aligned” while mine “dodges” is just rhetorical flourish. It avoids dealing with the actual evidence, which I’ll now break down factually and conclusively.  
  
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2\. On the Integrity of the Bible  
  
The Qur’an never denies that the Torah and Gospel were revealed. It does critique the human handling of them:  
  
Surah 2:79 warns of people writing scripture with their hands and claiming it’s from God.  
  
Surah 3:78 speaks of “a group among them who distort the Scripture with their tongues.”  
  
Surah 5:13 says: “They distorted the words from their right places and have forgotten a portion of what was reminded to them.”  
  
You say this critiques interpretation, not text. But when it mentions people writing, changing, and forgetting, that clearly goes beyond just commentary. That’s textual alteration—a fact even biblical scholars confirm.  
  
Proof:  
  
The ending of Mark (16:9–20) is a later addition (admitted in most modern Bibles).  
  
The Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7) — “Father, Word, and Holy Spirit” — was inserted centuries later to support Trinitarian doctrine.  
  
That’s not “Muslim opinion.” That’s in the footnotes of your own Bible.  
  
So yes, we respect the original revelation—but the current form has been shaped by scribes, councils, and centuries of editing.  
  
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3\. On Jesus’ Divinity  
  
Fact:  
  
Jesus never said, “I am God. Worship me.”  
  
That silence is thunderous—especially if it were the most crucial truth in human history.  
  
Although belief in Jesus’ divinity is central to mainstream Christianity today, a close look at Jesus’ own words, the earliest eyewitness and memory traditions, and the history of doctrine shows that:  
  
Jesus repeatedly distinguishes himself from God, praying to the Father and declaring the Father “greater than” him.  
  
No extant Gospel or Pauline letter quotes Jesus saying “I am God” outright—that doctrine emerges only in later theological reflection.  
  
The first three Ecumenical Councils (Nicaea 325 CE, Constantinople 381 CE, Chalcedon 451 CE) took centuries to hammer out “one God in three persons.”  
  
Early Jewish‑Christian groups (e.g., Adoptionists, Ebionites) denied Jesus’ eternal divinity, viewing him instead as a uniquely appointed prophet or Messiah.  
  
Logically, “one being in three persons, each fully God” violates the law of non‑contradiction unless one imposes an extrabiblical philosophical definition on “person” and “substance.”  
  
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Jesus’ Own Distinctions Between Himself and the Father  
  
1\. “The Father is greater than I.”  
  
John 14:28—Jesus contrasts his mission with the Father’s supremacy.  
  
2\. “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  
  
Mark 10:18—Jesus redirects “good” to the one true God, not himself.  
  
3\. “I do nothing of my own accord, but speak just what the Father taught me.”  
  
John 8:28–29—Jesus repeatedly attributes his words and works to the Father’s will.  
  
4\. “My Father is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”  
  
John 10:29–30—even in his famous “I and the Father are one,” the context is unity of purpose, not identity of person.  
  
5\. He prays to God, expresses human need, and even cries out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”  
  
Mark 15:34—a statement of genuine human distress, not divine self‑possession.  
  
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Absence of an Explicit “I Am God” Claim in Earliest Texts  
  
Pauline Epistles (50–60 CE) never quote Jesus claiming divinity; they focus on his death, resurrection, and exaltation by God.  
  
Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke; 65–85 CE) depict Jesus as Messiah and Son of Man, but never portraying him saying “I am God.”  
  
The Gospel of John (90–110 CE) develops high Christology, yet even here Jesus’ “I am” sayings (e.g., “I am the bread of life,” “I am the way”) are metaphorical and rooted in Jewish “I AM” tradition rather than clear self‑deification.  
  
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Early Christian Debates and the Development of Doctrine  
  
Adoptionism and Ebionitism (2nd–4th centuries) held that Jesus was born human and “adopted” as God’s Son—reflecting a purely human messiah concept.  
  
Council of Nicaea (325 CE): Arius argued “there was a time when the Son was not.” The Nicene Creed had to define the Son as homoousios (“of the same substance” as the Father).  
  
Council of Constantinople (381 CE) added the Holy Spirit to the creed.  
  
Council of Chalcedon (451 CE) finalized the doctrine of “two natures” in one person.  
  
These were political‑theological decisions made decades (even centuries) after Jesus’ life, not clear teachings from him or his immediate followers.  
  
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Logical and Philosophical Problems with “One God in Three Persons”  
  
1\. Law of Non‑Contradiction: A thing cannot both be and not be in the same respect. If each Person is fully God, there are three beings, not one.  
  
2\. Role of “Person” and “Substance”: These are Greek philosophical categories (prosopon, ousia) foreign to biblical Hebrew or Aramaic. The Trinity forces an extrabiblical framework onto Scripture.  
  
3\. Divine Immutability vs. Incarnation: If God is unchanging, how can one Person undergo human birth, suffering, and death without altering the divine nature?  
  
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Scholarly Voices Highlighting Jesus’ Humanity and Subordination  
  
Raymond E. Brown (The Death of the Messiah, Vol. 2): “The evangelists were not eyewitnesses of the passion… memories were reshaped by early Christian proclamation.”  
  
James D. G. Dunn (Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?): “No evidence in the earliest traditions of Jesus worship as God.”  
  
Bart D. Ehrman (Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium): “We have no direct eyewitness accounts—only later testimonies.”  
  
Larry Hurtado (Lord Jesus Christ) shows that early devotion to Jesus functioned more like reverence for a revered prophet or exalted son of God, not identification as the Creator.  
  
Jesus never explicitly claimed to be God in the way later theology defines Him. His consistent portrayal—by himself, by Paul, and by the earliest Gospel authors—is that of a messenger, Servant, and Son of Man sent by the one true God. The doctrine of the Trinity, rather than a straightforward reading of Scripture, is a post‑apostolic theological construction that introduces logical contradictions and relies on philosophical categories foreign to Jesus’ world.  
  
To continue clinging to a doctrine that:  
  
\- Requires centuries of council debates,  
  
\- Imposes Greek metaphysics on Semitic texts,  
  
\- Contradicts Jesus’ own subordination language,  
  
is, at this point, an exercise in defending the indefensible. The evidence points decisively to Jesus as a prophet and Messiah, not God Himself.  
  
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4\. On the Crucifixion  
  
Yes, the crucifixion is widely reported. But Islam doesn’t deny that someone was crucified—it denies that Jesus was crucified.  
  
You call this the “mistaken identity” theory. But even some early Christian sects, like the Basilideans, believed Simon of Cyrene was crucified in Jesus’ place.  
  
Were the Disciples Eyewitnesses to the Crucifixion?  
  
This is one of the most assumed claims in Christian belief—but the evidence tells another story.  
  
a) The Gospel Accounts Show the Disciples Fled  
  
• Mark 14:50: “Then everyone deserted him and fled.”  
  
• Matthew 26:56: “Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.”  
  
• Even Peter, the most vocal disciple, denied knowing Jesus three times that same night (Mark 14:66–72).  
  
This isn’t poetic language. It’s explicit testimony from the very texts Christians hold dear. The disciples were not present at the crucifixion itself.  
  
b) Women Were at the Cross—Not the Male Disciples  
  
• John 19:25–27 mentions some women at the cross and “the disciple whom Jesus loved”—widely disputed among scholars as either a symbolic figure or later theological insert.  
  
• Raymond Brown, a leading Catholic biblical scholar, writes in The Death of the Messiah (Vol. 2, pp. 1020–1022):  
  
“There is strong reason to question the historicity of the beloved disciple at the cross. The Synoptics say all fled.”  
  
• He further writes:  
  
“The presence of any male disciple at the cross, including the Beloved Disciple, is historically doubtful.”  
  
c) No Eyewitness Resurrection Accounts Exist Either  
  
• Even in resurrection narratives, Jesus appears in visions—not public, verifiable events.  
  
• The empty tomb is not proof of resurrection—only that Jesus’ body was missing.  
  
So when the Qur’an says:  
  
“They killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them.” (Surah 4:157)  
  
…it reflects historical ambiguity and post-event interpretation. Not eyewitness certainty.  
  
\[END OF PT1\]

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j.k.harwood2 · 5/3/2025, 5:29:47 AM · permalink

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j.k.harwood2 · 5/3/2025, 4:13:01 AM · permalink

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