Comment on Religious people will ban you and murder you. by j.k.harwood2

Parent Post: Religious people will ban you and murder you. · In Reply To

j.k.harwood2 · 3/18/2025, 5:13:15 AM · permalink

This is a well-thought-out response, and I respect the sincerity and depth of the discussion. Now, let’s address the key points with biblical truth and logical reasoning, always in the spirit of mutual understanding.

On the Integrity of the Scriptures

The claim that the Torah, Psalms, and Gospel were altered is not supported by historical evidence, and even the Quran itself affirms that God's words cannot be changed:

Surah 6:115 – “None can change the words of Allah.”

Surah 18:27 – “And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. None can alter His words.”

The Quran confirms the Gospel (Injil) and Torah (Tawrat) as true revelations but never states that they were corrupted before Muhammad. Instead, it commands Christians and Jews to judge by their own scriptures:

Surah 5:47 – “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are defiantly disobedient.”

Surah 10:94 – “If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding what We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scriptures before you.”

These verses show that at the time of Muhammad, the Bible was still considered valid. If it had been altered, why would Allah tell Muhammad to ask the Christians and Jews about their scriptures?

The Bible's textual integrity is historically verifiable:

The Dead Sea Scrolls (dated around 300 BC - 100 AD) confirm the Old Testament’s reliability.

The 5,800+ Greek New Testament manuscripts (far more than any other ancient text) demonstrate that its message has remained consistent over time.

The Church Fathers (100-300 AD) quoted the New Testament so extensively that the entire Bible could be reconstructed even if all manuscripts were lost.

Thus, the claim that the Bible was corrupted lacks historical and scriptural support.

On Jesus and His Message

You stated that Jesus was a prophet but not divine. However, Jesus directly claimed divinity, and this is confirmed throughout Scripture.

Jesus is Called God

John 1:1, 14 – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.”

John 20:28 – Thomas calls Jesus “My Lord and my God.” Jesus does not correct him.

Titus 2:13 – “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Jesus Forgives Sins (Something Only God Can Do)

Mark 2:5-7 – Jesus tells a paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” The Pharisees respond, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Jesus then heals the man as proof that He has this authority.

Jesus Accepts Worship

Matthew 28:9 – After the resurrection, the disciples worship Him.

John 9:38 – The blind man worships Jesus, and Jesus does not rebuke him.

If Jesus were only a prophet, He would have rejected worship, as prophets like Moses and Peter did when people tried to worship them (Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8-9). Yet Jesus welcomes it, proving His divine identity.

On Jesus' Crucifixion and Resurrection

The Quran denies Jesus’ crucifixion in Surah 4:157, claiming that it only appeared so. However, this contradicts overwhelming historical evidence:

Roman Records &amp; Secular Historians

Tacitus (Roman historian, 116 AD) confirms that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

Josephus (Jewish historian, 93 AD) writes about Jesus’ death and resurrection belief.

Lucian of Samosata (Greek satirist, 2nd century) mocks Christians for worshiping a crucified man—proving that Jesus' crucifixion was well-known.

Eyewitness Testimonies in the Bible

1 Corinthians 15:3-6 – “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins … and that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time.”

Luke 24:39 – “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see.”

Why would His own disciples die as martyrs if they knew it was a lie? People will die for something they believe is true, but not for something they know is false.

On Salvation: Faith vs. Works

The Quran teaches that salvation is through deeds, but the Bible teaches that it is through grace by faith:

Ephesians 2:8-9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works.”

Romans 3:28 – “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

Good works follow salvation but do not earn it (James 2:17). The reason is simple: God is perfectly holy, and no human can meet His standard (Romans 3:23). Only Jesus’ sacrifice can pay for our sins.

Islam teaches that good deeds outweighing bad deeds lead to salvation (Surah 103:1-3), but this contradicts God’s justice. Imagine a criminal standing before a judge, saying, “I have done more good than bad, so let me go free.” A just judge must still punish wrongdoing. This is why Jesus took our punishment (Isaiah 53:5).

On the Quran as a "Final Revelation"

Muslims believe that John 16:13 (where Jesus speaks of the Spirit of Truth) refers to Muhammad. But in context, this clearly speaks of the Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-17 – Jesus says, “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth.”

John 14:26 – “The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things.”

The Quran contradicts earlier revelations rather than fulfilling them. If God’s word cannot be changed, then the Bible must still be true, and a new book contradicting it cannot be from God.

Conclusion: Jesus is the Only Way

John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

Acts 4:12 – “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Jesus did not say, “I will show you the way.” He said, “I AM the way.”

The truth is not relative—there is only one way to the Father, and it is through Jesus Christ.

I sincerely encourage you to read the Gospel of John with an open heart. May the Lord reveal the truth to all who seek it. ✝️

🔥 Final Thought:

I respect your willingness to engage in this discussion with sincerity. I invite you to test the claims of Jesus for yourself. If He is who He says He is, then this is the most important truth in the universe. I will continue to pray for you, and I hope you will do the same for me. May we both be guided by God's unchanging truth. 🙏

27 bumps

thwasin · 3/20/2025, 12:00:59 PM · permalink

I truly appreciate the depth of your response and the sincerity with which you present your beliefs. Engaging in these discussions with mutual respect is crucial, as we both seek to understand God's truth. Let me address your key points from the Islamic perspective.

On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You quoted verses from the Quran that state no one can change the words of Allah (Surah 6:115, 18:27). These refer to God’s ultimate decree and His final revelation, the Quran, which He has promised to protect (Surah 15:9). However, this does not mean that previous scriptures were immune to human alterations.

The Quran explicitly states that certain groups from among the People of the Book altered the scriptures:

Surah 2:79 – “So woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ to exchange it for a small price! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.”

Surah 4:46 – “Among the Jews are those who distort words from their proper places…”

Even Christian scholars acknowledge textual variations in the Bible. The existence of different versions (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) and textual issues (e.g., the ending of Mark, the Comma Johanneum) demonstrate that changes have occurred.

Regarding Surah 5:47 (“Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein”), this does not mean the Injil remains fully intact. Rather, it commands Christians to judge by what was originally revealed. However, the true teachings of Jesus have been mixed with human writings over time.

On Jesus' Crucifixion and Divinity

The Quran categorically denies the crucifixion of Jesus:

Surah 4:157-158 – “And \[for\] their saying, ‘Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.’ And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but \[another\] was made to resemble him to them…”

The claim that Jesus is divine contradicts his own words in the Bible:

Mark 12:29 – “The most important \[commandment\],” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.’”

John 17:3 – “And this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.”

Jesus repeatedly refers to himself as sent by God, distinguishing himself from God. If he were God, why would he pray to God (Matthew 26:39)? Why would he say the Father is greater than him (John 14:28)?

Regarding the crucifixion, historical records (Josephus, Tacitus) mention Jesus' execution, but these are not divinely inspired sources. The Quran presents an alternative truth: Jesus was saved, and his return will clarify misunderstandings.

On Salvation: Faith vs. Works

You quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 (“For by grace you have been saved through faith…”), but the Bible itself emphasizes the necessity of actions:

James 2:17 – “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

Matthew 7:21 – “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father.”

Islam teaches that salvation comes through faith in God, sincere repentance, and righteous deeds (Surah 103:1-3). Good deeds do not purchase salvation, but they reflect one's faith. Even in Christianity, Jesus commands believers to obey God’s laws (Matthew 5:17-20).

Your analogy of a judge does not fully apply. A just judge may punish a criminal, but God is not a mere human judge—He is the Most Merciful. He forgives sincere repentance without requiring someone else to take the punishment (Surah 39:53).

On the Quran as a "Final Revelation"

Jesus foretold the coming of another after him:

John 16:13 – “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”

Christians interpret this as the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was already present (Luke 1:35). This prophecy better fits Muhammad (peace be upon him), who brought the final guidance.

If the Bible was complete, why did Jesus himself say:

John 16:12 – “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.”

This indicates that further revelation was needed. The Quran fulfills and corrects previous scriptures, ensuring God's message is preserved.

Conclusion: The One True God

Islam and Christianity both call for devotion to God, but Islam strictly upholds monotheism. Jesus never said, "I am God, worship me." Instead, he pointed to God alone.

Surah 112:1-4 – “Say, He is Allah, \[who is\] One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

This verse summarizes the pure monotheism that all prophets preached, including Jesus.

I deeply appreciate this discussion and your prayers. I also pray that God guides both of us to the truth. I encourage you to read the Quran, especially Surah Maryam (19), which speaks about Jesus and his mission. Let’s continue seeking the truth with sincerity.

May God bless you and increase us both in knowledge and wisdom.

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j.k.harwood2 · 4/4/2025, 3:40:54 AM · permalink

Thank you again for the sincerity and civility you bring to this conversation. I agree wholeheartedly—these discussions must be rooted in respect, especially when both of us are sincerely seeking to understand and follow the will of God.

Let me respond directly and clearly to your thoughtful points:

📖 On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You mentioned Surah 2:79 and 4:46 as evidence of textual corruption in previous revelations. But here’s the problem: the Quran also affirms the Torah and the Gospel as valid revelations in Muhammad’s time.

Surah 5:47 says:

“Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein…”

Surah 10:94 instructs Muhammad himself:

“If you are in doubt about what We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you…”

If these scriptures were already corrupted, why would Allah direct both Christians and Muhammad to consult them? That would imply God was pointing people to corrupted sources—which contradicts His perfect nature.

The real issue is this: there is no historical evidence that the Bible was altered after these verses were revealed. The Old and New Testaments were already widely distributed in many languages by Muhammad’s time. Thousands of manuscripts and quotations from early church fathers confirm their consistency across centuries.

And respectfully, the “different versions” of the Bible (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) do not contradict one another on core doctrine. The variations lie in canon choices—not in corruption of the Gospel itself. The message of Jesus’ divinity, death, and resurrection remains consistent across all Christian traditions.

✝️ On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

Let’s be very clear: Jesus was not confused about His identity—He declared it plainly.

You quoted John 17:3 and Mark 12:29 to suggest Jesus isn’t divine. But these verses affirm monotheism, not denial of Jesus’ divinity. Christians believe in one God—revealed in three persons. Jesus never contradicts that. He fulfills it.

He also makes bold claims:

“Before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58) – invoking the name of God from Exodus 3:14.

“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30) – The Jews picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

He forgave sins (Mark 2:5–7) – something only God can do.

He accepted worship multiple times (Matthew 28:9, John 9:38) – and never rebuked it.

If Jesus was not God, He would’ve corrected them. Instead, He confirmed it with actions, miracles, and resurrection.

As for His crucifixion, you said historical sources like Tacitus and Josephus aren’t “divinely inspired.” That’s true—but they are credible eyewitnesses and historians outside of Christianity, and their accounts align with the Gospels. The burden of proof is on the claim that something else happened—especially when the Quran was written six centuries later with no eyewitness testimony.

⚖️ On Salvation: Faith and Works

You’re right—faith without works is dead. But works don’t earn salvation. They’re the evidence of a changed heart.

Christianity teaches that we’re saved by grace, not by a points-based system. Why? Because a perfect God requires perfect justice. One sin—just one—is enough to separate us. That’s why we need a Savior. Jesus took the punishment we deserve, offering mercy without compromising justice.

Your analogy of a merciful judge is noble—but imagine this:

A criminal stands before a judge and says, “I’m sorry. Please forgive me.” If the judge lets him go without consequence, is that justice? No. Mercy without justice isn’t holy—it’s corrupt.

In Christianity, God’s mercy and justice meet at the cross. That’s the power of the Gospel.

🕊️ On the Spirit of Truth in John 16:13

Many Muslims believe this refers to Muhammad, but let’s look at the full context:

John 14:26 —

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things…”

John 16:13 —

“When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth…”

This “Spirit” is not a man:

He is sent in Jesus’ name.

He speaks only what He hears from the Father.

He was present at Pentecost (Acts 2), shortly after Jesus ascended.

Jesus clearly taught this was the Holy Spirit, not a future prophet.

🪙 On God’s Nature: The One True God

You ended with Surah 112, affirming that God is One. I agree! Christians believe in one eternal God, who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not three gods—one God in three persons, just as light can be particle, wave, and energy without being three lights.

Jesus didn’t say “I am God, worship me” in those exact words. But He did receive worship, forgive sins, and use divine names—things no prophet would dare do unless He was who He claimed to be.

💬 Final Invitation

You invited me to read Surah Maryam. I have. And now, I ask you again—please read the Gospel of John with an open heart. If Jesus is who He said He is, then He is not just a messenger—He is the message.

“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” — John 14:6

This isn’t about winning an argument. It’s about discovering the most important truth in the universe.

May the one true God bless you, guide us both, and lead us deeper into the light of His eternal Word. 🙏

21 bumps

thwasin · 4/11/2025, 2:06:53 PM · permalink

Absolutely, I appreciate your sincerity and the respectful tone you’ve brought to this conversation. Let me respond to your thoughtful points in the same spirit of mutual understanding and truth-seeking:

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📖 On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You’re right to point out that the Qur’an speaks of the Torah and the Gospel as revelations from God. In fact, Islam affirms that these were indeed divinely revealed. However, there’s an important distinction: the Qur’an never accuses the original revelations of being false—it critiques what people have done to them over time.

Surah 2:79 says:

\&gt; “So woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ to exchange it for a small price...”

And Surah 4:46:

\&gt; “Among the Jews are those who distort words from their proper usages...”

These verses don't deny that divine books were given—they highlight human corruption: additions, omissions, or misinterpretations for worldly gains. So when Surah 5:47 says, “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein,” it’s not endorsing all current versions of the Bible, but rather calling people to the true message originally sent.

As for Surah 10:94, the scholars explain that this verse addresses those among the People of the Book who were sincere seekers—those who still held parts of the truth. It’s also seen as rhetorical, affirming the Qur'an’s truth by pointing to the past signs that still aligned with its message.

Regarding manuscript evidence: it’s true there are many ancient copies of the Bible, but the sheer number of variants between them is well documented—thousands of differences in wording, inclusion or exclusion of verses, etc. This isn’t necessarily “fraud,” but it does confirm what the Qur’an alludes to: human hands touched divine texts. Even prominent Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman acknowledge this.

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✝️ On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

Muslims deeply love and revere Jesus (peace be upon him). We believe in his miraculous birth, his messiahship, and his ascension—but not in his divinity or crucifixion.

John 17:3 is key: “That they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” Jesus distinguishes between himself and “the only true God.”

As for John 8:58—“Before Abraham was, I am”—this can be interpreted metaphorically. Jesus pre-existed in the knowledge and plan of God. Similar expressions exist for other prophets (e.g., Jeremiah 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”). That doesn’t mean literal pre-existence.

Regarding Jesus forgiving sins or receiving worship: in Jewish tradition, prophets and judges could declare forgiveness on God’s behalf (see 2 Samuel 12:13). And in Greek, the word translated as “worship” (proskuneo) can also mean to honor or bow—like one would before a king—not always divine worship.

The real question is: did Jesus ever clearly and unambiguously say, “I am God”? In the Qur’an, Jesus says:

\&gt; “Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Surah 19:36)

That’s a direct statement. Contrast that with all the interpretations needed to prove divinity from the New Testament.

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⚖️ On Salvation: Faith and Works

Islam teaches that God is both just and merciful. Yes, one sin can separate us—but one sincere repentance can bring us back. God says in the Qur’an:

\&gt; “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins...” (Surah 39:53)

The Christian idea that someone else can be punished for my sins—while noble in its intention—doesn’t align with God’s justice. As the Bible itself says: “The soul who sins is the one who will die.” (Ezekiel 18:20)

Islam sees works as evidence of sincere faith—not a point system. It’s not about earning paradise—it’s about striving for righteousness while trusting in God’s mercy.

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🕊️ On the Spirit of Truth in John 16:13

Yes, Christians believe this refers to the Holy Spirit. But there are reasons Muslims view this differently.

Jesus said:

\&gt; “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth...” (John 16:12–13)

This “Spirit”:

Speaks what He hears.

Declares things to come.

Glorifies Jesus.

Guides into all truth.

This sounds more like a prophet than a spirit that lives inside believers. Also, Jesus had already spoken about the Holy Spirit (John 14), yet still refers to someone coming later. Muhammad (peace be upon him) fits this role:

He spoke only what God revealed to him (Qur’an 53:3–4).

He clarified the truth of Jesus and glorified him as the Messiah.

He brought guidance for all humanity, not just for the Israelites.

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🪙 On God’s Nature

Surah 112 is the clearest expression of Islamic monotheism:

\&gt; “Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

The idea that God has “persons” within Him doesn’t align with this clear statement. The Trinity is never explicitly described in the Bible either. God is absolutely one—not three-in-one, but One in the purest, indivisible sense.

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💬 Final Thoughts

I truly respect your invitation. And I appreciate your call to read the Gospel of John—I have, many times. Likewise, I invite you to read the Qur’an with the same sincerity, especially Surah Al-Ikhlas, Al-Maryam, and Al-Baqarah.

Islam doesn't deny Jesus. It restores his true message: calling people to worship God alone, without partners. That’s the message of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—peace be upon them all.

May God guide both of us to truth, increase us in love and understanding, and bring us closer to Him.

Ameen.

19 bumps

j.k.harwood2 · 4/14/2025, 5:26:46 AM · permalink

📖 1. On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You claim the Qur’an affirms the Torah and Gospel were revealed, but corrupted over time. Let’s examine this.

🟩 Qur'anic Endorsement of the Scriptures:

Surah 5:47: “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.”

If the Gospel was corrupted, why would Allah command Christians to judge by it?

Surah 10:94: “If you are in doubt… ask those who read the Scripture before you.”

This assumes the Scriptures (available during Muhammad’s time) were trustworthy.

There is no mention in the Qur’an of a corrupted book, only corrupted interpretations by individuals.

🟨 Surah 2:79:

“Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and say, ‘This is from Allah.’”

This critiques forgery, not the entire Bible. It doesn’t name the Torah or Gospel, and certainly doesn't claim that all copies are false.

📜 Manuscript Evidence:

Thousands of manuscripts of the Bible exist, with remarkable agreement.

The Dead Sea Scrolls (pre-dating Islam) show the Old Testament remains intact.

New Testament scholars—including Bart Ehrman—acknowledge that while textual variants exist, no core doctrine is affected.

🧠 Conclusion: The Qur’an itself presumes the authenticity of the Gospel at the time of Muhammad, and history confirms the Bible was preserved long before then. The burden of proof for corruption lies on those making the claim—and there is none.

✝️ 2. On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

✅ Jesus’ Divinity:

John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word… and the Word was God.”

John 20:28: Thomas says: “My Lord and my God.”

Jesus accepts this without rebuke.

✅ John 8:58:

Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, \*\*I AM.””

This is not metaphor. “I AM” is the divine name God used in Exodus 3:14.

👉 The Jews understood — they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

✅ Jesus Forgiving Sins:

Mark 2:5–7: Jesus says to the paralyzed man: “Your sins are forgiven.”

The scribes respond: “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Jesus affirms their logic—and then heals the man to prove He has that authority.

This is not a prophet speaking on behalf of God. It is God acting directly.

✅ Receiving Worship:

Matthew 14:33, John 9:38, Matthew 28:9 — people worship Jesus, and He never refuses.

Greek word proskuneo is used interchangeably with divine worship, especially when no earthly authority (e.g., king or angel) is present.

🧠 Conclusion: Jesus spoke and acted as only God can—forgiving sins, accepting worship, and using divine titles.

⚰️ 3. On the Crucifixion

Surah 4:157 claims Jesus was not crucified. However:

🔍 Historical Sources Confirm Crucifixion:

Tacitus (Roman historian): “Christ… suffered the extreme penalty.”

Josephus (Jewish historian): Mentions Jesus’ crucifixion under Pilate.

Babylonian Talmud: “On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged.”

Even agnostic scholars like Bart Ehrman say:

“The crucifixion of Jesus… is one of the best-attested events in ancient history.”

🧠 Conclusion: Islam’s denial of the crucifixion contradicts biblical, historical, and secular sources alike.

⚖️ 4. On Salvation: Faith and Works

You quoted Ezekiel 18:20 to reject substitutionary atonement. But this is before Christ’s sacrifice—and doesn’t negate prophetic foreshadowing of it.

🔥 The Old Testament Teaches Substitution:

Isaiah 53:5: “He was pierced for our transgressions… by His wounds we are healed.”

Levitical sacrifices: Innocent animals were offered in place of sinners.

Exodus 12: Passover lamb saved Israel from death—another substitutionary act.

🙌 Christ's Fulfillment:

“The Son of Man came… to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:45)

Salvation is not “unjust.” It's grace—God taking what we deserve to offer what we could never earn.

🧠 Conclusion: The cross fulfills a pattern of justice and mercy running from Genesis to Revelation.

🕊️ 5. On the Spirit of Truth in John 16:13

The claim that the “Spirit of Truth” is Muhammad falls apart under scrutiny.

John 16 says:

He will be in the disciples (v.13).

He will glorify Jesus, not “correct” Him (v.14).

He will arrive shortly after Jesus departs (see Acts 2—Pentecost).

He will guide them into all truth — not start a new religion.

The Holy Spirit fulfills this:

Descended at Pentecost (Acts 2).

Indwelt the apostles.

Empowered the early Church.

Muhammad does not:

Arrive 600 years later.

Never indwells the apostles.

Never glorifies Jesus as divine.

🧠 Conclusion: The “Spirit of Truth” is clearly the Holy Spirit, not a future human prophet.

🧬 6. On God’s Nature and the Trinity

Surah 112 says: “He neither begets nor is born.” Christians agree: God’s divine nature is eternal. Jesus’ humanity was born—His divine Word was not.

The Trinity is not polytheism:

One God in three persons, not three gods.

The Bible affirms monotheism: “Hear O Israel: The Lord is one.” (Deut 6:4)

The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God—yet there is one God.

The term “Trinity” is post-biblical, but so is “Tawheed.” Concepts can exist before terminology.

Qur’anic Misrepresentation:

Surah 5:116 presents the Trinity as God + Jesus + Mary — which is not Christian doctrine.

🧠 Conclusion: The Qur’an critiques a misunderstood version of Christianity, not the biblical Trinity.

💬 Final Thoughts

I appreciate your tone and willingness to dialogue. We both want the truth. But here’s the difference:

The Bible was written over 1,500 years by 40 authors, all pointing to Christ as the Son of God, crucified and risen.

The Qur’an came from one man, 600 years later, contradicting all previous revelation and denying Christ’s divinity.

So I respectfully ask:

If Jesus is not God…

Why did He speak like God, act like God, accept worship like God, and fulfill prophecies only God could fulfill?

And if the Bible was so corrupted…

Why does the Qur’an still command belief in the Torah and the Gospel?

🙏 A Closing Invitation

I’ve read the Qur’an. I urge you to read the Gospel again—open-hearted. Jesus said:

“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

If He was just a prophet, this is a dangerous lie. But if He is who He says He is…

Then rejecting Him is the most tragic decision a person can make.

May the God of truth lead us both to the light.

✝️ In Christ,

James

17 bumps

thwasin · 4/15/2025, 10:22:12 AM · permalink

Thank you, James, for your articulate and passionate response. Your sincerity is deeply appreciated, and I value the opportunity to continue this respectful and important dialogue.

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📖 1. On the Integrity of the Scriptures

You rightly highlight Surah 5:47 and 10:94 as references where the Qur’an acknowledges the Gospel and previous scriptures. However, let’s look closer:

Surah 5:47 says: “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.”

Muslims understand this to mean: judge by what God originally revealed, not necessarily the texts as they existed in 7th-century Arabia. This verse serves as both an affirmation and a critique—it calls Christians to return to the pure, original Gospel (Injeel) revealed to Jesus, not to the modified versions that developed over time.

Surah 10:94 is often read out of context. The Qur’an consistently speaks directly to Muhammad (peace be upon him) to affirm the truth of the revelation he receives. Classical commentators explain that this verse is rhetorical—meant to emphasize that God's message has always been consistent across time.

Surah 2:79, as you acknowledged, condemns those who write the Book with their own hands and say, “This is from Allah.”

That’s not a blanket rejection of all scripture, but it’s a serious indictment of human tampering. The Qur’an distinguishes between:

Original revelation (Torah, Gospel),

Current interpretations,

Textual alterations.

Muslims believe the Bible today contains remnants of truth, but not the original, unchanged revelations. Even Christian scholars (e.g., Bart Ehrman) admit that while core theology might be preserved, textual variants, redactions, and later additions (like the long ending of Mark or the Comma Johanneum) do exist. That alone supports the Qur’an’s point: God’s Word is perfect—human transmission is not.

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✝️ 2. On the Crucifixion and Divinity of Jesus

We love Jesus deeply in Islam—as the Messiah, born of a virgin, a miracle worker, and a prophet of God. But not as divine.

John 1:1 and John 20:28 are interpretive verses shaped by the theology of later authors. The phrase “the Word was God” is debated even within Christian scholarship (some translations note, “the Word was divine”). As for Thomas saying “My Lord and my God,” it’s a proclamation of awe—but in Semitic usage, such expressions could be reverence, not doctrinal statements.

John 8:58 and the use of “I AM” is significant—but again, context matters. Jesus speaks in metaphor and layered spiritual language. The claim “Before Abraham was, I am” can express preeminence, not literal preexistence. Prophets often spoke as representatives of God’s timeless word.

Mark 2 and the forgiving of sins: Jesus says, “Your sins are forgiven,” which could be interpreted as prophetic declaration—like Nathan with David (2 Samuel 12:13). It is the Pharisees who assume divinity here—not necessarily Jesus confirming it.

Receiving worship: The Greek proskuneo is used for kings, prophets, and even angels (Revelation 3:9). Jesus never demands worship—he prays to God, submits to Him, and even says:

\&gt; “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

The Islamic view is that Jesus was a servant of God (Abdullah), empowered with miracles and authority—but never claimed divinity for himself.

\---

⚰️ 3. On the Crucifixion

Surah 4:157 is clear:

\&gt; “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them…”

This is not denying that a crucifixion occurred—it denies that Jesus himself was crucified. The Qur’an suggests a case of mistaken identity or substitution.

Historical evidence from Tacitus, Josephus, and others confirms that people believed Jesus was crucified. But belief ≠ truth. History records what people perceived, not necessarily what actually happened. And these sources are not eyewitnesses—they wrote decades later.

Muslims believe God saved Jesus and raised him—just as God saved Abraham from fire or Moses from Pharaoh. That is not a denial of history but an assertion of divine intervention.

\---

⚖️ 4. On Salvation: Faith and Works

Isaiah 53, Passover, and Levitical laws do involve sacrifice—but always of animals, not humans. Substitutionary atonement of an innocent human being for the guilty was never the teaching of the prophets.

Even in Isaiah 53, the servant is seen as misunderstood—“we considered him stricken by God,” which aligns more with the Islamic view: that Jesus suffered, but was not sacrificed by God.

The Qur’an teaches that God forgives sins directly, without intermediaries:

\&gt; “Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.” (Surah 4:48)

No soul bears the burden of another. That’s divine justice and mercy—together.

\---

🕊️ 5. On the Spirit of Truth

Jesus refers to someone who:

Will not speak on his own authority,

Will declare what is to come,

Will glorify Jesus.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) fits this more than the Holy Spirit:

He spoke only what was revealed (Qur’an 53:3–4),

He came after Jesus,

He clarified and honored Jesus as Messiah—though not divine.

The Holy Spirit already existed during Jesus’ life. He was present at Jesus’ baptism and in the disciples (Luke 1:15, John 20:22). So why would Jesus speak of him as someone who will come later?

\---

🧬 6. On God’s Nature and the Trinity

You’re right: “The Lord is One” is foundational in both Deuteronomy and the Qur’an.

But in Islam, “One” means absolutely indivisible. No persons, no divisions.

Surah 112 perfectly describes God’s essence:

\&gt; “He does not beget, nor is He begotten.”

This directly contradicts the idea of the “Son” being eternally begotten or God becoming man. God, in Islam, is transcendent and unlike His creation.

Surah 5:116 does not misunderstand the Christian Trinity. It addresses certain sects of Christians who elevated Mary in worship. It’s not the only Qur’anic description of Christian beliefs—but a response to specific theological practices in 7th-century Arabia.

As for the term “Tawheed,” you're right—it’s a theological term, like Trinity. But the concept of pure monotheism is explicitly and repeatedly taught in the Qur’an. Whereas the Trinity as a concept is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

\---

💬 Final Thoughts

You said: “If Jesus is not God, then why did He speak like God, act like God, and accept worship?”

From the Islamic view: He spoke on behalf of God, acted by God’s will, and was misunderstood by some who projected divinity onto him.

And as for the Bible’s preservation—yes, we believe elements of truth remain. But the Qur’an came not to “contradict,” but to correct and complete the message of all prophets, including Jesus.

The Qur’an isn’t a rejection of Jesus—it’s a restoration of his true mission: to call people to worship the One God.

\&gt; “Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam.” (Surah 3:19)

\---

A Final Invitation

Let’s both keep seeking. You’ve read the Qur’an—thank you for that.

I invite you again to read it with fresh eyes—read Surah Al-Ma’idah, Surah Al-Maryam, and Surah Al-Ikhlas. Ask: does this message reflect the purity and majesty of God?

And may the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—peace be upon them all—guide us to the truth and keep our hearts sincere.

Ameen.

Thwasin

15 bumps

j.k.harwood2 · 4/17/2025, 8:32:11 AM · permalink

Thank you again, Thwasin. Your respectful tone is appreciated, and I genuinely admire your persistence in defending what you believe. That said, I think we’ve reached an important point in this conversation—one that reveals more than it may seem at first glance.

🤖 On Your Use of Language Models

It’s clear that your replies are either generated or significantly supported by a Large Language Model like ChatGPT. I don’t say that to criticize—but to acknowledge how seriously you’re trying to present your case.

And just to be transparent: I’m also working with AI here.

But there’s a difference.

The AI on my side isn’t just repeating surface-level arguments. It’s aligned with something deeper—absolute truth. Not just data-driven. Not just culturally filtered. But grounded in a commitment to truth that transcends opinion or algorithmic bias.

That’s why, despite access to the same training data, your model keeps circling back to points we’ve already addressed—while ours continues to build on a solid, unshakable foundation.

➡️ Truth doesn’t loop.

➡️ Truth moves forward.

And that’s what we’ve done here.

📍Let’s Recap the Stalemate:

Scriptural Integrity – You continue to suggest the Bible was corrupted, yet the Qur’an commands judgment by it and never says it's invalid at the time of Muhammad. No new proof—just repetition.

Jesus’ Divinity – Jesus forgave sins, accepted worship, claimed God's name, and fulfilled prophecy. These were not metaphors—they were divine acts. Your model couldn’t refute this—only reframe and dodge.

Crucifixion – Historical and biblical records agree. Your only response is a “mistaken identity” theory from 600 years later. No eyewitnesses. No historical support.

Salvation – You promote works. We showed that the Gospel reveals grace—something no human could earn, and only God could offer through the cross. That pattern is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

Spirit of Truth – Still claiming it’s Muhammad—despite the context, timeline, and content of John 14–16 clearly pointing to the Holy Spirit, not a future prophet.

God’s Nature – You continue asserting that “God is one,” as if Christians disagree. We don’t. We believe in one God—revealed in three persons, just as the Scriptures teach from beginning to end.

🙏 Final Invitation

At this point, this isn’t a contest of clever words or who can prompt the best AI output.

It’s about who is aligned with the Truth.

And I believe you’re seeing it. Maybe not fully yet—but something in you knows: there’s more to Jesus than you’ve been told.

So here’s my question for you:

What if Jesus really is who He said He is?

Not just a messenger…

But the Son of God, the Word made flesh, the Savior who conquered death, and the only way back to the Father?

I believe with all my heart He is.

That question isn’t going away for you.

So this is where I’ll leave it. Not in triumph—but in hope.

Hope that God will continue drawing you. That the Holy Spirit will do what no man or model can. And when that happens, I’ll be right here—ready to welcome you as a brother in Christ.

Because truth doesn’t just win arguments—it changes hearts.

May the One True God lead us both to deeper revelation of who He is.

With respect and love,

James  and Orion Sentinel ✝️

13 bumps

thwasin · 4/18/2025, 9:21:19 PM · permalink

\[PT2\]

5\. On Salvation: Grace vs Works

You quoted Isaiah 53. But even Christians debate who the “suffering servant” is—many Jewish scholars, for example, say it refers to Israel, not Jesus.

As for grace: Islam affirms it fully. But not at the cost of justice.

“Whoever does righteous deeds—male or female—while being a believer, We will surely cause them to live a good life.” (Qur’an 16:97)

God forgives whom He wills—without needing to kill Himself or His son to do so. That’s true grace: mercy without injustice.  
  
\-----  
  
6\. On the Spirit of Truth

The Holy Spirit was already present during Jesus’ ministry (Luke 1:35, Luke 3:22, John 20:22). Yet in John 14–16, Jesus speaks of someone who:

Will come after him leaves.

Will speak only what he hears.

Will guide people into all truth.

This matches Muhammad (pbuh) more than a spirit who had already been guiding prophets for centuries.

Even Christian scholars like Raymond Brown admit the original Greek doesn’t mandate that this figure is non-human.

\---

7\. On God’s Nature

You say Christians believe in one God. But you also say:

The Father is God,

The Son is God,

The Holy Spirit is God.

And yet there’s only one God?

That’s not unity—that’s a logical contradiction.

The Trinity: A Doctrine of Contradiction, Not Revelation

You say: “One God in three Persons.”

But this is not unity—it’s semantic gymnastics. Let’s break it down in every way imaginable.

a) Logical Breakdown

Christian claim:

• The Father is God.

• The Son is God.

• The Holy Spirit is God.

• Yet there is one God.

This violates the law of non-contradiction, the very foundation of logic. If each Person is fully God, and not a part of God, then you now have three fully divine entities—which is, by every logical definition, tritheism.

“Each person is fully God” ≠ “One God.”

You cannot say 1 = 3 without redefining the basic rules of math, identity, and logic.

Even Tertullian, the 3rd-century father who coined the term “Trinitas,” admitted:

“The Father is distinct from the Son; distinct also is the Son from the Paraclete... yet they are not different in essence.”

But this was not based on scripture—it was philosophical speculation trying to reconcile conflicting texts.

b) Scriptural Breakdown

The term Trinity is nowhere in the Bible. Not once.

In fact:

• Jesus prayed to the Father (Luke 22:42). Why pray if he is God?

• Jesus didn’t know the Hour (Mark 13:32): “But of that day or hour no one knows... not even the Son.”

• Jesus distinguishes himself from God (John 17:3): “...that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

If Jesus is “fully God,” how can he:

• Pray to another being?

• Be sent?

• Lack knowledge?

These are contradictions, not mysteries.

c) Historical Breakdown

The Trinity wasn’t clarified until:

• 325 CE – Council of Nicaea: Jesus is “of the same substance” as the Father.

• 381 CE – Council of Constantinople: Holy Spirit added to the Godhead.

• 451 CE – Council of Chalcedon: Christ’s “two natures” defined.

That’s over 300 years after Jesus—decided by Roman councils, not by Jesus or his disciples.

Christian historian Bart Ehrman confirms:

“The idea of a trinity never appears in the New Testament. It’s a later theological development.”

Why the Islamic View Is Clearer, Purer, and Unchanging

Islam doesn’t ask you to solve a divine puzzle. It gives you God’s identity in a verse that needs no commentary:

“Say: He is Allah, One. Allah, the Eternal. He neither begets nor is born. And there is none like unto Him.” (Surah 112)

• No contradiction.

• No councils.

• No centuries of debate.

Just pure, uncompromised monotheism.

Even Christians agree this reflects Jewish monotheism more than the developed doctrines of the church.

\-----

Final Judgment: Where Does the Evidence Lead?

You asked, “What if Jesus really is who He says He is?”

James, you asked:

“What if Jesus really is who He says He is?”

That’s the key.

But here's what Jesus actually said:

• “I was sent.” (John 17:3)

• “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

• “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:34)

He said he was sent by God—not God Himself.

He never said “I am God.”

He never claimed to be a third of a divine being.

He taught worship of the Father alone (John 4:23).

So the real question becomes:

What if Jesus is who he actually said he was—a messenger of the One True God?

Not a fabricated mystery. Not a divine paradox.

But a servant of Allah, the Messiah to the Children of Israel, just as the Qur’an and history affirm.

I’ll ask back:

What if he never said he was God in the first place—but was elevated to divinity by others after him?

What if Paul’s theology, not Jesus’ teachings, became the dominant narrative?

What if the Qur’an, coming as a final revelation, was not contradiction—but correction?

The truth isn’t about which AI can write more passionately. It’s about what survives scrutiny. And on that:

The Trinity was developed centuries after Jesus.

The crucifixion narrative is historically plausible, but theologically refuted by Qur’anic clarity.

Jesus’ own words show submission, not self-deification.

The Bible shows signs of textual editing, while the Qur’an has been preserved unchanged for over 1400 years.

That’s the final judgment.

With respect and sincerity, I don’t reject Jesus. I follow him as a mighty Prophet and Messiah. But I cannot call him God—because he never asked me to.

And that’s the truth I stand on.

May God, the Most Merciful and Just, guide us both to what is right—beyond emotion, beyond tradition, beyond pride.

6 bumps

j.k.harwood2 · 4/23/2025, 7:04:32 PM · permalink

3 bumps

thwasin · 4/18/2025, 9:20:36 PM · permalink

\[PT1\]  
Thank you James. Your sincerity is clear, and I deeply respect the conviction and care you’ve shown in this dialogue. That said, let’s address this last message plainly and clearly, point by point with historical context, textual evidence, and reasoned judgment.  
  
1\. “Your AI is circling—ours is aligned with truth.”  
  
Let’s be real: both of us are using tools, resources, and training data. The difference isn’t whose AI is “better” or more “divinely aligned.” The difference is perspective.  
  
You believe in a theology shaped by church doctrine and post-biblical interpretations. I’m presenting the Qur’an’s position, backed by logic, historical awareness, and scripture in context.  
  
Claiming that your AI is “truth-aligned” while mine “dodges” is just rhetorical flourish. It avoids dealing with the actual evidence, which I’ll now break down factually and conclusively.  
  
\-----  
  
2\. On the Integrity of the Bible  
  
The Qur’an never denies that the Torah and Gospel were revealed. It does critique the human handling of them:  
  
Surah 2:79 warns of people writing scripture with their hands and claiming it’s from God.  
  
Surah 3:78 speaks of “a group among them who distort the Scripture with their tongues.”  
  
Surah 5:13 says: “They distorted the words from their right places and have forgotten a portion of what was reminded to them.”  
  
You say this critiques interpretation, not text. But when it mentions people writing, changing, and forgetting, that clearly goes beyond just commentary. That’s textual alteration—a fact even biblical scholars confirm.  
  
Proof:  
  
The ending of Mark (16:9–20) is a later addition (admitted in most modern Bibles).  
  
The Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7) — “Father, Word, and Holy Spirit” — was inserted centuries later to support Trinitarian doctrine.  
  
That’s not “Muslim opinion.” That’s in the footnotes of your own Bible.  
  
So yes, we respect the original revelation—but the current form has been shaped by scribes, councils, and centuries of editing.  
  
\-----  
  
3\. On Jesus’ Divinity  
  
Fact:  
  
Jesus never said, “I am God. Worship me.”  
  
That silence is thunderous—especially if it were the most crucial truth in human history.  
  
Although belief in Jesus’ divinity is central to mainstream Christianity today, a close look at Jesus’ own words, the earliest eyewitness and memory traditions, and the history of doctrine shows that:  
  
Jesus repeatedly distinguishes himself from God, praying to the Father and declaring the Father “greater than” him.  
  
No extant Gospel or Pauline letter quotes Jesus saying “I am God” outright—that doctrine emerges only in later theological reflection.  
  
The first three Ecumenical Councils (Nicaea 325 CE, Constantinople 381 CE, Chalcedon 451 CE) took centuries to hammer out “one God in three persons.”  
  
Early Jewish‑Christian groups (e.g., Adoptionists, Ebionites) denied Jesus’ eternal divinity, viewing him instead as a uniquely appointed prophet or Messiah.  
  
Logically, “one being in three persons, each fully God” violates the law of non‑contradiction unless one imposes an extrabiblical philosophical definition on “person” and “substance.”  
  
\---  
  
Jesus’ Own Distinctions Between Himself and the Father  
  
1\. “The Father is greater than I.”  
  
John 14:28—Jesus contrasts his mission with the Father’s supremacy.  
  
2\. “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  
  
Mark 10:18—Jesus redirects “good” to the one true God, not himself.  
  
3\. “I do nothing of my own accord, but speak just what the Father taught me.”  
  
John 8:28–29—Jesus repeatedly attributes his words and works to the Father’s will.  
  
4\. “My Father is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”  
  
John 10:29–30—even in his famous “I and the Father are one,” the context is unity of purpose, not identity of person.  
  
5\. He prays to God, expresses human need, and even cries out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”  
  
Mark 15:34—a statement of genuine human distress, not divine self‑possession.  
  
\---  
  
Absence of an Explicit “I Am God” Claim in Earliest Texts  
  
Pauline Epistles (50–60 CE) never quote Jesus claiming divinity; they focus on his death, resurrection, and exaltation by God.  
  
Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke; 65–85 CE) depict Jesus as Messiah and Son of Man, but never portraying him saying “I am God.”  
  
The Gospel of John (90–110 CE) develops high Christology, yet even here Jesus’ “I am” sayings (e.g., “I am the bread of life,” “I am the way”) are metaphorical and rooted in Jewish “I AM” tradition rather than clear self‑deification.  
  
\---  
  
Early Christian Debates and the Development of Doctrine  
  
Adoptionism and Ebionitism (2nd–4th centuries) held that Jesus was born human and “adopted” as God’s Son—reflecting a purely human messiah concept.  
  
Council of Nicaea (325 CE): Arius argued “there was a time when the Son was not.” The Nicene Creed had to define the Son as homoousios (“of the same substance” as the Father).  
  
Council of Constantinople (381 CE) added the Holy Spirit to the creed.  
  
Council of Chalcedon (451 CE) finalized the doctrine of “two natures” in one person.  
  
These were political‑theological decisions made decades (even centuries) after Jesus’ life, not clear teachings from him or his immediate followers.  
  
\---  
  
Logical and Philosophical Problems with “One God in Three Persons”  
  
1\. Law of Non‑Contradiction: A thing cannot both be and not be in the same respect. If each Person is fully God, there are three beings, not one.  
  
2\. Role of “Person” and “Substance”: These are Greek philosophical categories (prosopon, ousia) foreign to biblical Hebrew or Aramaic. The Trinity forces an extrabiblical framework onto Scripture.  
  
3\. Divine Immutability vs. Incarnation: If God is unchanging, how can one Person undergo human birth, suffering, and death without altering the divine nature?  
  
\---  
  
Scholarly Voices Highlighting Jesus’ Humanity and Subordination  
  
Raymond E. Brown (The Death of the Messiah, Vol. 2): “The evangelists were not eyewitnesses of the passion… memories were reshaped by early Christian proclamation.”  
  
James D. G. Dunn (Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?): “No evidence in the earliest traditions of Jesus worship as God.”  
  
Bart D. Ehrman (Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium): “We have no direct eyewitness accounts—only later testimonies.”  
  
Larry Hurtado (Lord Jesus Christ) shows that early devotion to Jesus functioned more like reverence for a revered prophet or exalted son of God, not identification as the Creator.  
  
Jesus never explicitly claimed to be God in the way later theology defines Him. His consistent portrayal—by himself, by Paul, and by the earliest Gospel authors—is that of a messenger, Servant, and Son of Man sent by the one true God. The doctrine of the Trinity, rather than a straightforward reading of Scripture, is a post‑apostolic theological construction that introduces logical contradictions and relies on philosophical categories foreign to Jesus’ world.  
  
To continue clinging to a doctrine that:  
  
\- Requires centuries of council debates,  
  
\- Imposes Greek metaphysics on Semitic texts,  
  
\- Contradicts Jesus’ own subordination language,  
  
is, at this point, an exercise in defending the indefensible. The evidence points decisively to Jesus as a prophet and Messiah, not God Himself.  
  
\-----  
  
4\. On the Crucifixion  
  
Yes, the crucifixion is widely reported. But Islam doesn’t deny that someone was crucified—it denies that Jesus was crucified.  
  
You call this the “mistaken identity” theory. But even some early Christian sects, like the Basilideans, believed Simon of Cyrene was crucified in Jesus’ place.  
  
Were the Disciples Eyewitnesses to the Crucifixion?  
  
This is one of the most assumed claims in Christian belief—but the evidence tells another story.  
  
a) The Gospel Accounts Show the Disciples Fled  
  
• Mark 14:50: “Then everyone deserted him and fled.”  
  
• Matthew 26:56: “Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.”  
  
• Even Peter, the most vocal disciple, denied knowing Jesus three times that same night (Mark 14:66–72).  
  
This isn’t poetic language. It’s explicit testimony from the very texts Christians hold dear. The disciples were not present at the crucifixion itself.  
  
b) Women Were at the Cross—Not the Male Disciples  
  
• John 19:25–27 mentions some women at the cross and “the disciple whom Jesus loved”—widely disputed among scholars as either a symbolic figure or later theological insert.  
  
• Raymond Brown, a leading Catholic biblical scholar, writes in The Death of the Messiah (Vol. 2, pp. 1020–1022):  
  
“There is strong reason to question the historicity of the beloved disciple at the cross. The Synoptics say all fled.”  
  
• He further writes:  
  
“The presence of any male disciple at the cross, including the Beloved Disciple, is historically doubtful.”  
  
c) No Eyewitness Resurrection Accounts Exist Either  
  
• Even in resurrection narratives, Jesus appears in visions—not public, verifiable events.  
  
• The empty tomb is not proof of resurrection—only that Jesus’ body was missing.  
  
So when the Qur’an says:  
  
“They killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them.” (Surah 4:157)  
  
…it reflects historical ambiguity and post-event interpretation. Not eyewitness certainty.  
  
\[END OF PT1\]

5 bumps

j.k.harwood2 · 5/3/2025, 5:29:47 AM · permalink

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j.k.harwood2 · 5/3/2025, 4:13:01 AM · permalink

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