Comment on The Bible teaches a temporary spiritual hardening of Israel by braven

Parent Post: The Bible teaches a temporary spiritual hardening of Israel · In Reply To

braven · 1/22/2026, 9:04:50 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 1/24/2026, 1:05:48 AM · permalink

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sacredcow · 2/19/2026, 1:23:07 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/19/2026, 2:49:30 PM · permalink

You can think whatever you like but I don't want to get dragged into some superficial takes on what you understand to be insight. This is what rabbis consider when they speak on this topic. I will assume you can understand the greater picture here and google the rest on your own, if you have questions or interest:   
  
"In rabbinic literature dating back to late antiquity (Talmudic and midrashic periods), Edom (the biblical nation descended from Esau, Jacob's brother) became symbolically identified with Rome. This association arose after the Roman destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the subsequent exiles—Rome was seen as the ultimate oppressor, the "fourth kingdom" in prophecies like Daniel's statue vision. Over time, as the Roman Empire Christianized (especially after Constantine in the 4th century), the identification extended to Christendom (Christian Europe/Western civilization) more broadly. Esau/Edom thus represents the spiritual and cultural successor to pagan Rome: a powerful, materialistic, often hypocritical empire that dominates the world while clashing with Jewish values (e.g., Midrash compares the pig—unclean yet showing "kosher" signs like split hooves—to Rome/Edom claiming righteousness while committing violence).  
  
This typology persists in modern times among many Orthodox and traditional rabbis:  
  
The current exile (galut) is frequently called the "Exile of Edom" or "Roman Diaspora," seen as the final one before messianic redemption.  
  
Western culture (including secular liberalism, hedonism, imperialism, or aspects of Christianity) is viewed as inheriting Edom's traits—power through might, cultural dominance, and sometimes perceived moral duplicity.  
  
Specific rabbis and thinkers (e.g., Rabbi Avigdor Miller historically, or contemporary ones like Rabbi Mendel Kessin, Rabbi Tovia Singer in lectures, or writers in outlets like Aish.com and Chabad-related sources) explicitly link Edom to the modern West, Christianity, or even America specifically (as a hedonistic or arrogant expression of Esau's traits).  
  
In some messianic or prophetic discussions, events involving the West (or America as "Edom") are interpreted through this lens, such as conflicts with Ishmael (often linked to Arab/Islamic forces) or internal "purifications" leading to redemption.  
  
Not all rabbis emphasize this symbolically or literally today—some treat it as historical allegory, while more mystical or haredi voices keep it alive in discussions of geopolitics, culture wars, or end-times scenarios. It's especially prominent when rabbis comment on Western secularism, antisemitism, or perceived moral decline as echoes of ancient Roman/Jewish tensions."

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sacredcow · 2/19/2026, 6:03:02 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/19/2026, 7:54:37 PM · permalink

You can view religions and spirituality in different ways: either as philosophical flaws or elitist systems of control or as innate human need/experience. You can assume that truth exists out there but is constantly drowned out by falsehoods, and you have to actively seek it out and verify as much as possible. We already see and identify falsehoods and propaganda everywhere, with the general public often on the receiving end of this programming. If lies are real and pervasive, it makes sense to at least look for truth in the primary source material. Grasping the Bible's core message is often easier than actually applying it to one's own life. Knowing something intellectually is usually simpler than living it out, that is a separate and much bigger and continuous challenge. The Bible may not be the easiest book to read, but it's far from the hardest, and at a certain level, it should resonate. Most modern translations are already quite useful for understanding the essentials, though many have removed God's personal name (Jehovah/YHWH) and sometimes impose a "Trinity" lens when translating Greek texts where originally lacked punctuation. My overall point is that acquiring knowledge is easier than putting it into practice in real life. You have free will to approach these things however you see fit.  
  
The Bible is clear enough in its essential message, salvation through Christ,  for regular people to understand with normal effort, good translations and context.   
  
Psalm 119:130 NIV  
The unfolding of your words gives light;  
 it gives understanding to the simple.  
   
Deuteronomy 30:11-14 NIV  
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.  
  
Not every passage is equally simple, some are harder, as Peter admits about Paul's letters in 2 Peter 3:16 NIV  
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.  
  
But the core truths needed for faith and life are accessible. while the gospel itself remains straightforward and receivable by anyone willing to hear it  
Romans 10:17 NIV  
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.    
  
Proverbs 2:1-6 NIV  
My son, if you accept my words  
and store up my commands within you,   
turning your ear to wisdom  
and applying your heart to understanding—   
indeed, if you call out for insight  
and cry aloud for understanding,   
and if you look for it as for silver  
and search for it as for hidden treasure,   
then you will understand the fear of the Lord  
and find the knowledge of God.   
For the Lord gives wisdom;  
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

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sacredcow · 2/20/2026, 12:47:22 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/20/2026, 3:48:52 PM · permalink

I have made these points in greater detail here: https://soj.ooo/p/freethinkers/post/c5b1d57a490cd42717c5481a1b0e2ca1/comment/117014 , followed by a less condensed version.  
  
  
The main theme of the Old Testament is God's plan to reconcile humanity to Himself by dealing with our sins through the arrival and death of the Messiah.  
  
This "gospel" (good news) is proclaimed right from the beginning in Genesis 3:15:  
“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”  
  
The central theme running through the entire Old Testament is the foreshadowing of this event. Depending on how detailed the count is, scholars identify hundreds of messianic prophecies, often over 300, that point to the Messiah. For example, Daniel 9:24-27 provides a specific timeline for the Messiah's public revelation and his death.  
  
A major part of this foreshadowing is the sacrificial system under the Law (given to Israel through Moses). In the Old Testament, people offered animal sacrifices, lambs, goats, bulls, and more, to atone for sins. Because sin brings death and separation from God, and “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22, reflecting Leviticus). These sacrifices were temporary: they covered sin for a time but had to be repeated year after year, because the blood of bulls and goats could never fully remove sins or change hearts (Hebrews 10:1-4).  
  
Jesus changes everything. He fulfills those messianic prophecies and the very purpose of the Law. In Matthew 5:17, He says:  
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”  
  
He perfectly obeyed the Law, lived it out completely, and then offered Himself as the ultimate, once-for-all sacrifice.Hebrews explains this clearly:  Hebrews 10:10-12: “We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... But this one \[Jesus\] offered one sacrifice for sins forever.”    
Hebrews 10:18: “Where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.”  
  
So the animal sacrifices were like shadows pointing forward to the real thing—Jesus as the perfect Lamb of God (John 1:29). Once He died and rose again, the need for the old system ended because the problem of sin was fully and forever dealt with. The Law's purpose—to reveal sin, guide people toward God, and foreshadow the Messiah—was completed in Him.That's why the New Testament focuses on faith in what Jesus has already done, rather than ongoing animal offerings.  
The Old Testament sets the stage; the New Testament reveals the fulfillment in Jesus.

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sacredcow · 2/20/2026, 9:37:46 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/20/2026, 11:22:06 PM · permalink

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sacredcow · 2/21/2026, 1:04:00 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/22/2026, 12:22:19 PM · permalink

I am trying to keep things on topic but I feel this point is mostly lost on the entitled human logic.  
  
God's sovereignty means He doesn't owe us explanations for His choices.  
  
Job: God responds to Job's "why me?" suffering not with reasons, but with overwhelming questions about creation (Job 38–41), showing His infinite wisdom/power far exceeds human understanding. Job humbly repents: "I spoke of things I did not understand" (Job 42:3).  
  
Romans 9: Paul defends God's right to choose whom He shows mercy to, using the potter-clay analogy: "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? ... Has the potter no right over the clay?" (Romans 9:20–21). God has mercy on whom He wills, no human demand for justification required.  
  
Isaiah 55:8–9: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways... As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways."  
  
  
Fate of those who've never heard the gospel:  
God judges justly based on what people have received. Jesus summarizes the whole Law and Prophets in two commands: Love God fully (heart, soul, mind) and love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–40). Everything hangs on this relational love.  
  
Paul in Romans 2:12–16 explains God's impartial judgment: Gentiles without the written Law still "by nature" do what the law requires at times, showing "the work of the law is written on their hearts," with conscience bearing witness, accusing or excusing them on judgment day (v. 15–16). This points to general revelation (creation in Romans 1:18–20 reveals God's existence/power, leaving people without excuse) plus an innate moral awareness.  
  
If the Law's essence is love for God/neighbor (Matthew 22), then the "law on hearts" (Romans 2) includes an internal pull toward that love, even in remote cultures. Someone might respond positively: awe (not worship of creation) at creation and compassion toward others. Their conscience could "excuse" rather than accuse - Romans 2.  
  
This isn't salvation by works - Paul rejects that in Ephesians 2:8–9. It's judgment according to available light, God overlooks times of ignorance but calls all to repent through Christ (Acts 17:30). True response to this heart-law (love) would lead toward faith in the true God when fuller revelation comes. Ultimately, salvation is through Christ alone, but God is just and merciful in how He judges every heart.  
  
Before Christ, general revelation (creation/conscience) made people accountable but couldn't save. Jesus' sacrifice provides the actual atonement and new life; His resurrection seals it and promises bodily resurrection for everyone - turning judgment into hope for those who respond in faith.  
  
All I can say is, I really hope you'll take a moment to read the verses I referenced. I didn't quote them all here to keep things concise, but everything is differently when you see the words directly. Ask any questions... as usual:)

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sacredcow · 2/22/2026, 12:56:53 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/22/2026, 8:10:22 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/21/2026, 7:29:37 PM · permalink

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sacredcow · 2/20/2026, 12:49:13 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/20/2026, 4:14:11 PM · permalink

Genesis says Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters beyond Cain, Abel, and Seth (Genesis 5:4), and early generations lived hundreds of years with large families (no genetic issues like today because the gene pool was fresh and uncorrupted). Sibling incest wasn't forbidden until much later (Leviticus 18, after the population grew). It's not impossible biologically in that context, God designed it to start that way. Some Christians see parts of Genesis as having symbolic layers (teaching deep truths about sin, humanity, etc.), but the core is that all humans descend from one pair, showing we're united in sin and need redemption.   
  
The Bible doesn't hide that God chose Israel (the Jews) as His special people, not because others were worthless, but to make Himself known to the whole world through them. Right from the start with Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3), God promises: "I will bless those who bless you... and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." That's repeated (Genesis 18:18, 22:18), the blessing isn't just for Jews; it's for all nations/families/peoples through Abraham's descendant (the Messiah). Isaiah confirms this again: the Servant (Messiah) brings salvation "to the ends of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6), and nations stream to God (Isaiah 2, 60). Even in the OT, foreigners like Rahab, Ruth (a Moabite), and Naaman are included in God's story and blessings.  
  
The OT God isn't "only for Jews", He uses Israel as the channel to reach everyone. The focus is on Israel because that's where the Messiah would come (from the tribe of Judah, line of David). Jesus Himself says "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22), meaning the plan/purpose starts there, but it's not limited there. The NT isn't "some people adding stuff later", it's the fulfillment of OT promises. Jesus commissions going to "all nations" (Matthew 28:19), Peter quotes Joel about the Spirit poured on "all flesh" (Acts 2), and Paul makes it clear that in Christ there's no Jew/Gentile divide, salvation by grace through faith for anyone (Romans 1:16; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11-22).  
  
So the God of the OT is the God who came to save the world, not just Jews, through the Jewish Messiah. The story builds progressively: God starts with one family (Abraham) to bless all families. The Law shows sin; sacrifices point forward; prophecies (like Daniel's timeline) set the stage. Jesus arrives, dies for sins once for all, rises, and opens the door to everyone. That's why the NT proclaims it openly to Gentiles too.

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j.k.harwood2 · 2/12/2026, 7:58:17 PM · permalink

Braven, thank you for your patience as I considered your thoughtful challenges. You've raised legitimate philosophical questions that deserve serious engagement.

Addressing the "Gaslighting" Accusation:

Your concern about God needing Jewish rejection to save Gentiles touches on a crucial theological point. But I'd suggest Paul isn't describing God as needing Jewish stumbling, but instead he's describing how God used what was already happening for redemptive purposes.

Consider this logic:

God's original plan included both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 12:3 - "all families of the earth")

Jewish leaders chose to reject Jesus (not because God forced them)

God incorporated their free choice into His larger redemptive plan

This demonstrates divine sovereignty working through rather than overriding human agency

On Paul's Historical Reliability:

While I understand skepticism about Paul, his letters are among our earliest Christian documents (written 20-30 years after Jesus). Even critical scholars generally accept their authenticity. More importantly, if we're going to critique his theology, we should engage with his actual arguments rather than dismiss them based on character assessment.

The "Making Israel Jealous" Question:

Your point about this seeming "childish" actually reveals something profound about God's methodology.  That was a good point that I thought about as a kid when I wasn't a believer.  A little more understanding of the Hebrew helped. The Hebrew concept of "jealousy" (qin'ah) isn't petty emotion.  It's passionate commitment to relationship. God's goal isn't manipulation but restoration through witness.  Think of it this way: When Jews see Gentiles experiencing the blessings promised to Israel, it's meant to awaken recognition of what they're missing - not from spite, but from love.

The Deeper Logic Question:

You ask why God would need this "complicated method" if He can save the world directly. This touches on the fundamental question of why God allows free will at all.

Consider: God could force everyone to believe, but then it wouldn't be genuine faith, love, or relationship. The "complicated method" preserves human agency while still accomplishing redemption. God works through human choices rather than despite them.

Your Most Challenging Point and I had to think about it a lot to respond in a way that articulated the thought correctly - You note that God "didn't save the world even then" and people are still waiting. This is the strongest objection. Paul would argue that salvation has come to the world through Christ, but the full realization awaits completion. It's "already but not yet" - like a victory won but still being implemented.  I guess that is how I understand it.

The Pattern You're Identifying:

You see this as "gaslighting," but I'd suggest it's actually consistent with how God operates throughout Scripture—working redemptively through human failure rather than preventing it entirely. Think about Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, yet God using it to save nations (Genesis 50:20).

Braven, these are exactly the kinds of questions that strengthen rather than weaken faith when wrestled with honestly. I genuinely appreciate you pushing on the logical coherence.  These challenges help clarify what we actually believe and why.

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braven · 2/13/2026, 7:01:39 PM · permalink

Hello and thank you for this reply.  Very well done.  
I am not going to be able to reply to all of that, but I do appreciate your insights and comments....gives one a lot to think about.  
And my reply is not meant to be contentious, but it 'may' read that way, as this is a contentious topic, so I am doing my best to share my understanding of patterns that may unite us.  Something like that.  
  
That being said, I would like to discuss a few specific topics we might be able to .....improve upon....maybe?  
*if we're going to critique his theology, we should engage with his actual arguments rather than dismiss them based on character assessment.*
  
In general, I would agree with this assertion, but in this specific, I do not agree.  
Paul does not have a theology...he has lies.  And nothing but.  
  
Paul is not a believable person....no matter how accurate the writings were.  
Paul is a cautionary tale....a person so vile as not to be believed from the outset.  
Nothing he has to say...interests me.  
  
What you have to say about Paul, may be of interest, but it wouldn't prove a theocracy....it makes it less believable.  
  
*"The Deeper Logic Question:*

*You ask why God would need this "complicated method" if He can save the world directly. This touches on the fundamental question of why God allows free will at all.*

*Consider: God could force everyone to believe, but then it wouldn't be genuine faith, love, or relationship."*

Okay....so this is where the contention is going to hit hard so I hope we can build a pattern of communication around this....  
God does not 'allow free will'.    
Free will does not exist.   
It is a merely Christian term used to gaslight others.  
  
*Consider: God could force everyone to believe,*  
The above is gaslighting.  
If God could do that, he would do that.  Simple enough.  
But he can't do that, because he does not have that capacity.  
That Christians make excuses for why God is the way he is....gaslighting.  
  
Which brings us to this....  
*You see this as "gaslighting," but I'd suggest it's actually consistent with how God operates throughout Scripture—working redemptively through human failure rather than preventing it entirely. Think about Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, yet God using it to save nations (Genesis 50:20).*
  
Your suggestion is accurate.*..*and yet...it does not negate gaslighting.

I agree that the pattern of gaslighting is consistent throughout Scripture.

*Braven, these are exactly the kinds of questions that strengthen rather than weaken faith when wrestled with honestly. I genuinely appreciate you pushing on the logical coherence. These challenges help clarify what we actually believe and why.*  
  
You have given me much to think about, and I will give this more thought.  
Again, thank you for this conversation....greatly appreciated.  
  
Peace.😇

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sacredcow · 2/19/2026, 1:21:21 PM · permalink

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braven · 2/12/2026, 8:25:57 PM · permalink

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