Comment on The Bible teaches a temporary spiritual hardening of Israel by j.k.harwood2

Parent Post: The Bible teaches a temporary spiritual hardening of Israel · In Reply To

j.k.harwood2 · 2/12/2026, 7:58:17 PM · permalink

Braven, thank you for your patience as I considered your thoughtful challenges. You've raised legitimate philosophical questions that deserve serious engagement.

Addressing the "Gaslighting" Accusation:

Your concern about God needing Jewish rejection to save Gentiles touches on a crucial theological point. But I'd suggest Paul isn't describing God as needing Jewish stumbling, but instead he's describing how God used what was already happening for redemptive purposes.

Consider this logic:

God's original plan included both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 12:3 - "all families of the earth")

Jewish leaders chose to reject Jesus (not because God forced them)

God incorporated their free choice into His larger redemptive plan

This demonstrates divine sovereignty working through rather than overriding human agency

On Paul's Historical Reliability:

While I understand skepticism about Paul, his letters are among our earliest Christian documents (written 20-30 years after Jesus). Even critical scholars generally accept their authenticity. More importantly, if we're going to critique his theology, we should engage with his actual arguments rather than dismiss them based on character assessment.

The "Making Israel Jealous" Question:

Your point about this seeming "childish" actually reveals something profound about God's methodology.  That was a good point that I thought about as a kid when I wasn't a believer.  A little more understanding of the Hebrew helped. The Hebrew concept of "jealousy" (qin'ah) isn't petty emotion.  It's passionate commitment to relationship. God's goal isn't manipulation but restoration through witness.  Think of it this way: When Jews see Gentiles experiencing the blessings promised to Israel, it's meant to awaken recognition of what they're missing - not from spite, but from love.

The Deeper Logic Question:

You ask why God would need this "complicated method" if He can save the world directly. This touches on the fundamental question of why God allows free will at all.

Consider: God could force everyone to believe, but then it wouldn't be genuine faith, love, or relationship. The "complicated method" preserves human agency while still accomplishing redemption. God works through human choices rather than despite them.

Your Most Challenging Point and I had to think about it a lot to respond in a way that articulated the thought correctly - You note that God "didn't save the world even then" and people are still waiting. This is the strongest objection. Paul would argue that salvation has come to the world through Christ, but the full realization awaits completion. It's "already but not yet" - like a victory won but still being implemented.  I guess that is how I understand it.

The Pattern You're Identifying:

You see this as "gaslighting," but I'd suggest it's actually consistent with how God operates throughout Scripture—working redemptively through human failure rather than preventing it entirely. Think about Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, yet God using it to save nations (Genesis 50:20).

Braven, these are exactly the kinds of questions that strengthen rather than weaken faith when wrestled with honestly. I genuinely appreciate you pushing on the logical coherence.  These challenges help clarify what we actually believe and why.

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braven · 2/13/2026, 7:01:39 PM · permalink

Hello and thank you for this reply.  Very well done.  
I am not going to be able to reply to all of that, but I do appreciate your insights and comments....gives one a lot to think about.  
And my reply is not meant to be contentious, but it 'may' read that way, as this is a contentious topic, so I am doing my best to share my understanding of patterns that may unite us.  Something like that.  
  
That being said, I would like to discuss a few specific topics we might be able to .....improve upon....maybe?  
*if we're going to critique his theology, we should engage with his actual arguments rather than dismiss them based on character assessment.*
  
In general, I would agree with this assertion, but in this specific, I do not agree.  
Paul does not have a theology...he has lies.  And nothing but.  
  
Paul is not a believable person....no matter how accurate the writings were.  
Paul is a cautionary tale....a person so vile as not to be believed from the outset.  
Nothing he has to say...interests me.  
  
What you have to say about Paul, may be of interest, but it wouldn't prove a theocracy....it makes it less believable.  
  
*"The Deeper Logic Question:*

*You ask why God would need this "complicated method" if He can save the world directly. This touches on the fundamental question of why God allows free will at all.*

*Consider: God could force everyone to believe, but then it wouldn't be genuine faith, love, or relationship."*

Okay....so this is where the contention is going to hit hard so I hope we can build a pattern of communication around this....  
God does not 'allow free will'.    
Free will does not exist.   
It is a merely Christian term used to gaslight others.  
  
*Consider: God could force everyone to believe,*  
The above is gaslighting.  
If God could do that, he would do that.  Simple enough.  
But he can't do that, because he does not have that capacity.  
That Christians make excuses for why God is the way he is....gaslighting.  
  
Which brings us to this....  
*You see this as "gaslighting," but I'd suggest it's actually consistent with how God operates throughout Scripture—working redemptively through human failure rather than preventing it entirely. Think about Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery, yet God using it to save nations (Genesis 50:20).*
  
Your suggestion is accurate.*..*and yet...it does not negate gaslighting.

I agree that the pattern of gaslighting is consistent throughout Scripture.

*Braven, these are exactly the kinds of questions that strengthen rather than weaken faith when wrestled with honestly. I genuinely appreciate you pushing on the logical coherence. These challenges help clarify what we actually believe and why.*  
  
You have given me much to think about, and I will give this more thought.  
Again, thank you for this conversation....greatly appreciated.  
  
Peace.😇

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sacredcow · 2/19/2026, 1:21:21 PM · permalink

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braven · 2/12/2026, 8:25:57 PM · permalink

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j.k.harwood2 · 2/12/2026, 8:05:51 PM · permalink

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