Comment on Children of Adam: let's find at least one common ground by turkey

Parent Post: Children of Adam: let's find at least one common ground · In Reply To

turkey · 12/8/2025, 6:22:20 PM · permalink

The exclusion of texts like the Gnostic Gospels from the Christian canon was based on theological and historical criteria established by the early Church Fathers. These texts were rejected primarily for their non-conforming views of Jesus and salvation, which were deemed heretical. The process of canonization was essentially one of recognition, not creation, affirming books that already met three key standards: Orthodoxy (conforming to the established Rule of Faith), Apostolicity (written by or near an Apostle), and Catholicity (widespread acceptance across major Christian centers). Eusebius of Caesarea listed the Gospel of Peter and the Gospel according to Thomas as “disputed writings” that were “spurious and impious” to differentiate them from the accepted books. The common depictions of Jesus with distinctively white, European features are a matter of cultural tradition and artistic convention, not a result of theological dogma established by Church councils. Early Christian images were not intended to be biographical or historically accurate portraits but functioned primarily to convey theological meaning and spiritual presence. The historical reality is that Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jewish man. The core issue for the councils was the theological content of the texts, not the physical appearance of Jesus.

The Islamic theological claim of the Quran’s perfect preservation presents a contradictory standard when viewed alongside the charge of tahrif (corruption) leveled against the Christian and Jewish Scriptures. Islamic doctrine holds that the Quran has been perfectly preserved, textually and word-for-word, since its final compilation around the 7th century AD, based on the claim that “Indeed, it is We who sent down the message (the Qur’an), and indeed, We will be its guardian” (3.1: Qur’an, Surah 15:9). This claim requires an individual to argue that the same God who could not safeguard the earlier revelations (the Torah and the Gospel) from being changed by their followers was somehow able to flawlessly safeguard the final and most detailed revelation (the Quran). If the earlier communities were capable of the wholesale tahrif that created the theological and historical contradictions (such as changing the crucifixion narrative or confusing Haman’s timeline), it creates a logical double standard for the reliability of divine scripture across different eras and communities. Traditional Islamic belief teaches that the Quran was compiled under Abu Bakr and standardized under Uthman around 650–656 AD.

Sunan Abi Dawud, Book 40, Hadith 4449:

The Messenger of Allah asked: “What is the punishment for him who commits adultery?” They replied: “We blacken their faces and make them ride upon a donkey, turning their faces opposite to the way they are going.” He said: “Bring the Torah, and if it does not contain stoning, I will accept your verdict, and if it contains stoning, I will command that it be carried out...”

(The stoning verse in the Torah was pointed out.)

Then the Messenger of Allah commanded concerning the Jew and the Jewess, and they were stoned. Then I saw the Prophet put his hand on the Torah and say: “I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.”

So now you need to explain when and where exactly the Christians and Jews corrupted their holy writings. If Muhammad himself affirmed them in the mid-to-late 7th century, and we have tens of thousands of textual manuscripts showing very little change over the course of two thousand years—other than translation errors into different languages—at what point was “the message” corrupted in the holy books?

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/8/2025, 6:28:06 PM · permalink

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turkey · 12/12/2025, 10:19:17 PM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/13/2025, 9:57:06 AM · permalink

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turkey · 12/13/2025, 11:25:12 AM · permalink

Muhammad said the Torah and Gospel were TRUE books from God during his own life (before 632 AD). Since he said they were true, and since the Bibles we have today are very stable with only tiny differences in old and new copies, the Bible's main message was not secretly changed after Muhammad died. This means your friend must choose between only two bad options, and both of them show a problem for the claim that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved and that the Bible is wrong. The first option is that the Bible's words were changed (tahrif bi al-lafz). This means God let His holy books be completely corrupted and lost all over the world before Muhammad was even born. If this is true, it means God failed to keep His word safe for centuries. The second option is that only the meaning was corrupted (tahrif bi al-ma'na). This means the words of the Bible are actually correct, and the text is affirmed as true by Muhammad. If the words are correct, then the Qur'an was revealed when the true messages were already on Earth and still existed. In short, your friend must choose an option where God fails to protect His word (dilemma 1) or an option where the Bible's text is affirmed as true (dilemma 2).  
  
Sahih al-Bukhari 6819  
  
This Hadith is narrated by Abdullah Ibn Umar, the same narrator as your previous Sunan Abi Dawud quote.  
  
A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Muhammad. They had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Muhammad asked them What is the legal punishment for this sin in your Book (Torah)? They replied Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya (making them ride a donkey in opposite directions).  
  
A man named Abdullah bin Salam who was with Muhammad said to them You have told a lie the penalty of Rajam (stoning) is in the Torah. They brought the Torah and opened it. One of the Jews put his hand over the verse of the Rajam and read what was only before and after it.  
  
Abdullah bin Salam said to the Jew Lift up your hand. When he lifted it, the verse of the Rajam was right there. So the Jews said O Muhammad He has said the truth the verse of the Rajam is in it (Torah). Then Muhammad ordered that the two people be stoned to death, and so they were stoned.     
  
Sunan Abi Dawud 4449 (The Afirmation)  
  
A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) who sat on it and said Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying "I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee." He then said Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi (No. 4431).  
  
Sunan Abi Dawud 4446 (The Judgment)  
  
  
Abdullah bin Umar narrated that a Jewish man and woman who had committed adultery were brought to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). Muhammad went to the school of the Jews and asked them What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied We disgrace them and they should be flogged. Abdullah bin Salam said to them You lie the order for stoning is in the Torah.  
  
So they brought the Torah and spread it out. One of the Jewish men put his hand over the verse of stoning and read only what came before and after it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him Lift your hand. When the Jewish man lifted his hand, the verse of stoning was seen right there. The Jews then said He has spoken the truth Muhammad the verse of stoning is in it. Muhammad then gave the command for the man and woman to be stoned to death. Abdullah Ibn Umar said I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones.

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/14/2025, 8:56:44 AM · permalink

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turkey · 12/14/2025, 10:26:28 AM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/14/2025, 11:15:11 AM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/14/2025, 11:55:48 AM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/14/2025, 2:03:27 PM · permalink

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turkey · 12/15/2025, 1:28:01 PM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/15/2025, 2:16:11 PM · permalink

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sacredcow · 12/15/2025, 3:15:46 PM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/22/2025, 5:53:08 PM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 12/14/2025, 12:18:44 PM · permalink

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turkey · 12/14/2025, 12:44:05 PM · permalink

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turkey · 12/14/2025, 10:32:10 AM · permalink

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turkey · 12/13/2025, 10:39:39 AM · permalink

'PERFECTLY PRESERVED' Your claim, not mine. And yet the Bible makes no such claim, and you hold 'it' to that standard. That is what I meant when I said you can't come from a place of honest debate.  
  
Sahih al-Bukhari (Volume 6, Book 61, Hadith 509)  
  
"Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before.'  
  
So \`Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.'  
  
Hafsa sent them to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies.  
  
\`Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, for the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue.'  
  
They did so, and when they had written many copies, \`Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa.  
  
\`Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt."  
  
The main problem with saying the Qur'an text is 'perfect' is the big time difference between when it was revealed and when it was finally written. Caliph Uthman ordered the text to be made standard around 650–651 AD, which was only 18 years after the Prophet died. This action itself proves that God could not keep his own text the same for even 18 years, because Uthman had to fix several different versions and stop people from fighting over them. Also, the original dialect of Quraish is now a dead language that nobody speaks. This means we cannot know the 'exact', 'original sound of the revelation'. The problem gets worse because the early Uthmanic copies were missing the little dots (i'jam) that make letters different (like a 'B' from a 'T') and the vowel marks (harakat) that show how to pronounce words. These necessary marks were not fully added until about 300 years later (around the 9th or 10th century AD). This means the final book we read today is the result of many years of 'human' work to fix an unclear written script. This long historical change creates a conflict with the Qur'an's own claim that it was revealed as a 'clear' and 'perfect book from the start'.

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