People who lie...........

Its origin was a merger of multiple programs with the goal of creating a single affordable multi role stealth aircraft to replace various aging fighter, strike, and attack planes for the US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps, as well as allied nations. It was never meant to be a dedicated SEAD platform. I actually got to play in one of the first flight simulator booths for the F-35 in 1999, and the engineers there explained a lot of it to me. I had been kicked out of school for talking and insubordination, and they made my mom come pick me up. She ended up asking her boss if I could just stay there as a punishment, and all the assemblers, engineers, and everyone else thought I was fun, so they gave me a full tour of the facility. I still even have the internal promotional literature somewhere.

The main selling points were never really the stealth part. It was always the modularity of the computer systems and the situational awareness they gave the pilot. Too many people fall for propaganda. Stealth was always a buzzword to secure funding for the program. Try explaining the importance of a powerful integrated computer system with advanced sensors to a Silent Generation politician in the late 90s. They all still believed in speed and firepower.

The planes are not meant to be invisible to ground based radars. They just limit the accuracy of those systems enough to scramble interceptors and stop reliable locks from lower powered air defense systems. And they do that extremely well. They can definitely operate in contested airspace. Israel’s strikes into Iran and Qatar were guided, and targeting data was fed to the missile trucks by the F-15s as part of the wider networked strike package.

You can complain about the price all you want but they are invaluable to the Air Force. And dont forget that the military will complain about its own systems to get bigger budgets for newer projects. Its the same reason we always lose wargames, because it lets Congress claim how dire the situation is.

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hyokkim · 12/12/2025, 8:45:56 PM · permalink

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turkey · 12/12/2025, 10:06:53 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 12/13/2025, 7:22:56 AM · permalink

''Its origin was a merger of multiple programs with the goal of creating a single affordable multi role stealth aircraft to replace various aging fighter, strike, and attack planes for the US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps, as well as allied nations.''  
  
That was the gimmick they were selling, along with stealth.  
  
''It was never meant to be a dedicated SEAD platform.''  
  
It should have been dedicated SEAD platform, but LM got greedy, and started selling what you said above to get far bigger sales than SEAD platform could have sold.  
  
''How are you going to sell something using "Stealth" in the internal Marketing if it doesn't have that capability?''  
  
The problem is internal bay comes with disadvantages for the reason you had stated:  
  
''Its origin was a merger of multiple programs with the goal of creating a single affordable multi role stealth aircraft to replace various aging fighter, strike, and attack planes for the US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps, as well as allied nations.''  
  
Can you tell me what those disadvantages would be?  
  
'' It was an oversight in near peer threats, and the threat was overlooked during the "War on Terror". ''  
  
Yes, they were overlooked, and what aspects were overlooked?  
  
'' "ROKAF found F-35 FMC to be 25%, while F-50 FMC is 90%. KF-21 FMC is expected to be at least 80%." - Hyok Kim  
  
'' ... and yet F-35 is a combat 'proven' platform. South Korea purchased the F-35 primarily for 'unique capabilities' that the FA-50 or KF-21, as designed, can't fully replicate, and for the strategic benefits of partnership.''   
  
No, you don't get it; I know why.   Here are the true reasons:  
  
1\. When ROKAF purchased F-35, it had not been combat proven.  ROKAF purchased nominally for SEAD, not for anything else.   F-35, other than SEAD, is a suboptimal platform.  Outside SEAD, both FA-50, and KF-21 are to be far superior overall.  
  
Besides that, both U.S. and ROK had ulterior motives that you are not aware of.   Here they are:  
  
1\. U.S. had not expected ROKAF would succeed in building KF-21 on its own.   When U.S. realized ROKAF was successful in developing KF-21 on its own, U.S. got paranoid.   Not only U.S. was going to lose big potential sales to ROK, if ROK succeeded in building KF-21, it could compete against F-35 in international sales, especially in ME, losing a lot of potential sales, not just F-35, but future USAF jets after F-35.  This means not just a lot of money, but also political influence around the world.  
  
So, suddenly U.S. became very interested in selling F-35 to ROK.   U.S. hoped that ROK would not have the political will to purchase both F-35 and develop KF-21 at great economic cost.   U.S. was proven wrong.  
  
ROK decided to do both: The reason?     ROK was dead set on developing KF-21 to become militarily and politically independent of U.S. foreign policy eventually.   However, when U.S. offered an opportunity for ROK to buy F-35, ROK decided to take it.   They wanted to benchmark F-35 so that KF-21 was going to be at least an equal to or superior to F-35 in the end.   If ROK would achieve this goal, then ROK reasoned that they could export KF-21 to other countries, especially the ones who did not have the budget for F-35 and/or who are politically forbidden to purchase F-35.  
  
''I am of the opinion that our aircraft should be rugged and capable of operating in horrendous environments. The US doesn't have the issue as it has way more airframes overall, and the technical ability to increase turn around.''  
  
F-35 is not very rugged/reliable/durable.   F-35 airframe is fragile, and not very durable.  
  
''The problem is in its design they never assumed that China would be the "near peer", if they had taken that into account I'm sure they wouldn't have chosen rely on Chinese procurement of materials.''  
  
Dude, what Chinese components does F-35 use?       
  
'' lol But that just shows the lack of forethought of our "Leaders", always choosing cost or short term investment over the correct path.''  
  
... and who knows the correct path, you?

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turkey · 12/13/2025, 8:10:26 AM · permalink

"That was the gimmick they were selling, along with stealth."  
  
Idk what else you actually would like to know. I agree it was a gimmick. But its still a VERY capable platform. And when it was approved the Government had been closing bases and plenty of weapon systems were going away so the option for LM was either lose Billions in contracts or sell "the dream" (a "cost effective" Highly capable platform) to Congress.    
  
"It should have been dedicated SEAD platform, but LM got greedy, and started selling what you said above to get far bigger sales than SEAD platform could have sold."  
  
😂... and who knows the correct path, you?  
  
"The problem is internal bay comes with disadvantages for the reason you had stated"  
  
Yeah and you can't have proper stealth unless you design 'stealth' missiles to be mounted to the exterior (see the first answer) or you build internal bays. Obviously with any design choice there are trade offs. But the redesigned internal bay did increase the capacity to 6 from 4.  
  
"Can you tell me what those disadvantages would be?"  
  
besides the budgetary tightening, not many when you look at it from a budgetary view. They were meant to have 80% parts commonality which theoretically would have had easier logistics, its down to 20% now. (If you have a point make it)  
  
"No, you don't get it; I know why."  
  
Do you ever hear yourself? Do you realize how ludicrous you sound when you make ROK sound like it always makes the greatest decisions? Its pure cope... Anyone that thinks a Government is PERFECT isn't a serious person... If you actually paid attention to what it is I am telling you instead of ignorantly 'presuming', I could take you seriously. But your lack of neutrality smh its little man syndrome.  
  
"F-35 is not very rugged/reliable/durable.   F-35 airframe is fragile, and not very durable."  
  
Specifically engine components made from Samarium-Cobalt Alloy. I wasn't claiming they BUILD anything.. and I literally said, "Chinese procurement of 'materials'."  My point being  that if they actually had 'foresight' they 'wouldn't' allow ANY of their supply/procurement to go through a possibly Hostile Nation. (One of the greatest advantages of America is that we don't need to feel like we're always right, and are fully capable of accepting when our Government makes mistakes.) We have large quantities of rare earths also but they chose not to develop them because of the pollution involved in the harvesting and production processes. China subsidizes it, for the jobs and the leverage they offer.   
  
"... and who knows the correct path, you?"  
  
Nope, but neither do you. I do appreciate your perspective though, it allows me to see things from another vantage.

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hyokkim · 12/13/2025, 9:05:27 AM · permalink

''But its still a VERY capable platform.''  
  
Capable in what aspects?  
  
''"It should have been dedicated SEAD platform, but LM got greedy, and started selling what you said above to get far bigger sales than SEAD platform could have sold." - Hyok Kim

''😂...... and who knows the correct path, you?'' - turkey  
  
Yes, I do.  Both LM, and USAF should have anticipated the correct path, the path eventually chosen by ROKAF.  
  
''The problem is internal bay comes with disadvantages for the reason you had stated" - Hyok Kim

''Yeah and you can't have proper stealth unless you design 'stealth' missiles to be mounted to the exterior (see the first answer) or you build internal bays. Obviously with any design choice there are trade offs. But the redesigned internal bay did increase the capacity to 6 from 4.'' - turkey  
  
''Can you tell me what those disadvantages would be?" - Hyok Kim  
  
''besides the tightening, not many when you look at it from a budgetary view. They were meant to have 80% parts commonality which theoretically would have had easier logistics, its down to 20% now. (If you have a point make it)  
  
If you actually paid attention to what it is I am telling you instead of ignorantly 'presuming', I could take you seriously. But your lack of neutrality smh its little man syndrome.'''' - turkey  
  
You totally missed them.  
  
Oh, it's a lot more than that!   Internal bay makes the plane's COG very hollow, and it makes the plane maneuver poorly compared to the same plane without the internal bay.  
  
This will make the plane suffer very poorly in dogfights, both within VR, and BVR.  It also makes the plane perform poorly in evasive maneuvers from SAM, and AA artillery within VR, as well.  
  
It also makes the airframe weaker structurally, meaning its ability to perform extreme maneuvers, during dogfights, and evasive maneuvers will suffer as well as much reduced airframe life, increasing the total lifetime cost of the plane drastically.    
  
See, I know more than you.  
  
 "No, you don't get it; I know why." - Hyok Kim

''Do you ever hear yourself? Do you realize how ludicrous you sound when you make ROK sound like it always makes the greatest decisions? Its pure cope... Anyone that thinks a Government is PERFECT isn't a serious person...   
  
ROK does not make perfect decision all the time: They voted for Yoon the scumbag.  
  
However, ROK makes optimal decision better than most countries out there, including U.S.  You know why?   The single most important reason is the electorate in ROK hold the politicians accountable more than any other country in the world.  
  
If the electorate in U.S. were like ROK electorate, Bush jr. Clintons, Obama, Trump, Biden, they all would be in prison, including some of the families.     
  
''Specifically engine components made from Samarium-Cobalt Alloy. I wasn't claiming they BUILD anything.. and I literally said, "Chinese procurement of 'materials'." My point being that if they actually had 'foresight' they 'wouldn't' allow ANY of their supply/procurement to go through a possibly Hostile Nation.''  
  
Are you implying those engine components had gone through PRC?  
  
''(One of the greatest advantages of America is that we don't need to feel like we're always right, and are fully capable of accepting when our Government makes mistakes.)''  
  
No, that is not an advantage, but one of the greatest disadvantages.   U.S. electorate must hold government accountable when they make mistakes that could have been avoidable.  
  
That's what ROK electorate does to the government, keeping them on their toes, and making them 'behave'.  
  
"... and who knows the correct path, you?" - Hyok Kim

''Nope, but neither do you. I do appreciate your perspective though, it allows me to see things from another vantage.'' - turkey  
  
Sometimes, I do, and/or can appreciate the correct path, as chosen by ROKAF.

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turkey · 12/13/2025, 10:03:58 AM · permalink

You know what, since you don't ever actually read what i write, and choose to talk past me i'm not going to keep wasting my time. do you understand the concept of material vs component? a 'material' goes into the production of a 'component' the 'component' then gets assembled into a 'module', be it an 'airframe' or an 'engine'.... if a vital 'material', is 'necessary' in order to produce an 'engine' which 'jet planes' need to 'fly', then its a 'bad thing' for production and repairs. Sort of like how in the event of War on the Korean penninsula, Korea won't be able to feed itself. Without its 'overlord', and its Allies. Until you're back in Korea serving your "awesome" 'Government' 😂 You don't get to brag about the ROK anymore, 'stop' being a 'Hypocrite'.  
  
"No, that is not an advantage, but one of the greatest disadvantages.   U.S. electorate must hold government accountable when they make mistakes that could have been avoidable."  
  
Again, America isn't a 'Country', its an EMPIRE. Do you even pay attention to US politics or do you solely pay attention to Korea while living in the USA? Elections are a JOKE, you Vote for Bush (who promises No More Policeman of the World) proceeds to WAR ON TERROR, you Vote for Obama (who promises Hope and Change) proceeds to WAR ON TERROR, plus further erode Civil Liberties, you Vote for Trump (who promises to build a wall, to Lock her up, MAGA) Proceeds to WAR ON TERROR, plus no wall for you, Israel needs a wall, Hillaries actually a really nice person, MIGA.  Its all a show, moneyed interests control the Government NOT "the electorate". Look to Rome for an example of how America operates.  
  
"However, ROK makes optimal decision better than most countries out there, including U.S.  You know why?   The single most important reason is the electorate in ROK hold the politicians accountable more than any other country in the world." Maybe "The electorate" should pull their heads out of their asses and vote for food security. Because once you get your way, and artillery rains down on your Capitol without America to defend your food shipments. Not only are Hundreds of thousands going to die, Millions after that are going to starve. I heard the stories from my Grandfather it wasn't pretty, thousands were starving during the War. And that was with the UN/USA getting involved, I think you just are too prideful to admit that the ROK's current levels of Wealth are 'only' possible under the American umbrella... I think that its humiliating to you to think of Korea as a Protectorate, but it is. If you were capable of swallowing your Pride you could see that, but instead you choose to denigrate and literally bite the hand that feeds you...Shameful

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hyokkim · 12/13/2025, 4:16:33 PM · permalink

''You know what, since you don't ever actually read what i write, and choose to talk past me i'm not going to keep wasting my time. do you understand the concept of material vs component? a 'material' goes into the production of a 'component' the 'component' then gets assembled into a 'module', be it an 'airframe' or an 'engine'.... if a vital 'material', is 'necessary' in order to produce an 'engine' which 'jet planes' need to 'fly', then its a 'bad thing' for production and repairs''  
  
.... and you haven't rebutted my rebuttals to your assertion.  
  
''The problem is internal bay comes with disadvantages for the reason you had stated" - Hyok Kim

''Yeah and you can't have proper stealth unless you design 'stealth' missiles to be mounted to the exterior (see the first answer) or you build internal bays. Obviously with any design choice there are trade offs. But the redesigned internal bay did increase the capacity to 6 from 4.'' - turkey

''Can you tell me what those disadvantages would be?" - Hyok Kim

''besides the tightening, not many when you look at it from a budgetary view. They were meant to have 80% parts commonality which theoretically would have had easier logistics, its down to 20% now. (If you have a point make it)

If you actually paid attention to what it is I am telling you instead of ignorantly 'presuming', I could take you seriously. But your lack of neutrality smh its little man syndrome.'''' - turkey

''You totally missed them.

Oh, it's a lot more than that! Internal bay makes the plane's COG very hollow, and it makes the plane maneuver poorly compared to the same plane without the internal bay.

This will make the plane suffer very poorly in dogfights, both within VR, and BVR. It also makes the plane perform poorly in evasive maneuvers from SAM, and AA artillery within VR, as well.

It also makes the airframe weaker structurally, meaning its ability to perform extreme maneuvers, during dogfights, and evasive maneuvers will suffer as well as much reduced airframe life, increasing the total lifetime cost of the plane drastically.

See, I know more than you.'' - Hyok Kim  
  
''Sort of like how in the event of War on the Korean penninsula, Korea won't be able to feed itself.''  
  
That depends on how long the war is going to last, and with whom, and who would be the allies, and when is the war coming.     
  
When/if ROK decided to go to war against China, ROK will have no problem feeding herself.  ROKN will dominate the South China Sea, and can import food from Russia, India, SE Asia.  
  
It will be China who won't be able to feed herself, due to the lack of oil, and flooding that will come due to ROKAF busting dams/waterways from Tibet.   ROKN/ROKAF will make sure of that.     
  
''Without its 'overlord', and its Allies.''  
  
The Korea you're talking about is from M.A.S.H.   That ROK has been gone a long time ago.  
  
''You don't get to brag about the ROK anymore, 'stop' being a 'Hypocrite'.''  
  
I am just noticing how adroit ROK diplomacy is along with her grand strategy, especially compared to U.S.    Biden should be in prison along with several other ex-POTUSES like ROK has put several POROKs in prison.  
  
This is the proof ROK holds politicians accountable; U.S. electorate doesn't.   Why U.S. is going down the tube.  
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JLlLsRwXOI  
  
''Elections are a JOKE, you Vote for Bush (who promises No More Policeman of the World) proceeds to WAR ON TERROR, you Vote for Obama (who promises Hope and Change) proceeds to WAR ON TERROR, plus further erode Civil Liberties, you Vote for Trump (who promises to build a wall, to Lock her up, MAGA) Proceeds to WAR ON TERROR, plus no wall for you, Israel needs a wall, Hillaries actually a really nice person, MIGA. Its all a show, moneyed interests control the Government NOT "the electorate". Look to Rome for an example of how America operates.''  
  
That is why U.S. is going down the tube.  Certainly not the greatest advantage?  What are you smoking?  
  
''Maybe "The electorate" should pull their heads out of their asses and vote for food security. Because once you get your way, and artillery rains down on your Capitol without America to defend your food shipments. Not only are Hundreds of thousands going to die, Millions after that are going to starve.''  
  
They do; they have stockpiles of non-perishables ready, and the war is going to be over very quickly, they have no intention of fighting forever wars like U.S.    It's stupid.  
  
  
'' I heard the stories from my Grandfather it wasn't pretty, thousands were starving during the War. And that was with the UN/USA getting involved, I think you just are too prideful to admit that the ROK's current levels of Wealth are 'only' possible under the American umbrella... I think that its humiliating to you to think of Korea as a Protectorate, but it is. If you were capable of swallowing your Pride you could see that, but instead you choose to denigrate and literally bite the hand that feeds you...Shameful''  
  
I see, you get your stories from your grandpa, and think it's still valid; you're out of the date, son.  
  
ROK can win a defensive war against China, but it would be easier if U.S. shared the cost, since U.S. believes it's in her interest as well, for now.  
  
When ROK becomes strong enough to defeat China in a total strategic offensive campaign, the alliance will end, and will seek/form a new alliance with Russia, Iran, and India.   That day would be around 2050 or before if China implodes before then.  
  
https://soj.ooo/p/freethinkers/post/ef654aabaec4a5742168660a87a16880  
  
https://soj.ooo/p/tech/post/dc3839de0004edbb126b94fe8597efc3  
  
https://soj.ooo/p/tech/post/85afa24aee8f760f73148b01b16d5f1e  
  
http://duretek.com/wordpress/high-performance-projectile/

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turkey · 12/13/2025, 7:06:25 PM · permalink

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hyokkim · 12/13/2025, 8:13:20 PM · permalink

''Hyokkim's response is riddled with technical inaccuracies and emotional posturing. His claim that internal bays make a plane's center of gravity "hollow" is physically incorrect-bays affect weight distribution but not in the simplistic way he describes.''  
  
Dude, you don't even understand basic physics, do you?  
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_gravity_of_an_aircraft#Incorrect_weight_and_balance_in_fixed-wing_aircraft  
  
Dude, internal bay makes the center of the plane hollow; that's a fact.  Why ROKAF decided to produce KF-21 in the first two blocks without the internal bay; internal bay is only useful for SEAD, for stealth.  
  
They can carry far more warheads on external bay and make the plane far more maneuverable as well.  
That's what modern AF uses their combat planes for; they don't use them for SEAD, most times.  
  
I got the info from ROK military channels discussing why ROKAF decided to build KF-21 with external bay first, will build with internal bay later on, because SEAD is not the priority.   ROK is not planning to go to offensive war anytime soon.  
  
The discussion was between ROKAF pilot and interviewer; the pilot had flown F-35, and other planes as well.  
  
In simulated combat, both F-35/22 fared poorly against some planes with external bay, due to poor maneuverability.    
  
''You also misrepresents the structural impact of internal bays, exaggerating their effect on maneuverability and airframe durability. Modern fighters like the F-35 have internal bays without the catastrophic performance issues he claims.''  
  
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/one-raptor-down-us-f-22-loses-air-battle-to-new-dog-fa-50/  
  
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-35-loses-dogfight-to-4th-gen-dassault-rafale/ar-AA1Llzaj  
  
Among pilots, it's a well-known fact, internal bay makes plane's maneuverability to suffer.  
  
Internal bay also increases stress on the frame, you could use automobile example, convertibles look cool, but without that roof holding the rest of the frame together, the chassis flex more, and maneuverability at high speed suffer.  
  
Without the internal bay, the aircraft frame is solid, and can withstand stress during maneuver better., and will last far longer, reducing the lifetime cycle costs by spectacular margin.  
  
''Your assertion that South Korea could defeat China without US support is delusional. China's military spending is over 20 times that of South Korea, with superior numbers and technology.''  
  
They do not have superior technology in almost all conventional areas.  
  
Their planes FMC is even worse than U.S.  About 10%!    In terms of actual number of planes available 24/7, ROKAF has more combat planes than the entire Chinese military today.  
  
The reason?   ROKAF has the highest FMC in the world, in the entire modern AF history, up to 90% for FA-50.   This means only 10% of the planes for Chinese military are available for combat 24/7 while ROK has up to 90% of the planes of ROKAF available 24/7.  
  
In terms of actual planes available for combat 24/7, ROKFA already exceeds China.     
  
Not only that, ROK has far superior conventional military technology than China.  
  
 ''His scenario of ROKN dominating the South China Sea and importing food from Russia and India ignores China's ability to blockade or disable these supply lines.''  
  
You're way behind the curve; ROKN has proven its ability against USN in RIMPAC, multiple times.  
  
''In October 1992, Korea became the 43rd nation to join the submarine community. Since then South Korea and its Navy have demonstrated an outstanding capability with respect to submarine force construction, sustainment and operation.

In international exercises such as RIMPAC and Tandem Thrust, ROKN Type 209 submarines have demonstrated superiority in the detecting and attacking of powerful “enemies”.

In 1998 the ROKS LEE JONGMOO participated in RIMPAC (as did HMAS ONSLOW). It sunk 13 warships (150,000 tons) and was the only submarine to survive until the end of the exercise.

ROKS PARK WI participated in RIMPAC 2000 (HMAS WALLER participated also, with great success). Considering the 1998 RIMPAC achievements, “enemy” forces kept a close watch on PARK WI, making it a top priority for sinking during the exercise. However, she sank 11 enemy ships (96,000 tons) and, again, survived to the end of the exercise without being detected once by enemy forces. Admiral “Big Al” Konetzni, COMSUBPAC at the time, publicly praised the performance of the ROKN submarine.

In 2002 ROKS NA DAEYONG participated in RIMPAC (as did HMAS SHEEAN). It sank 10 enemy ships (100,000 tons) and, matching the trend, survived to the end of the exercise.

In 2004 it was ROKS CHANG BOGO’s turn to take part in RIMPAC (as did HMAS RANKIN). It successfully launched a total of 40 simulated torpedoes against 15 surface ships, including the nuclear aircraft carrier, USS JOHN C STENNIS, and her accompanying escorts. It survived until the end of the exercise without being counter detected and without mechanical issue.

ROKN submarine performance at these exercises has invited keen attention.

The ROKN have moved on to their next program, with three of a planned force of nine Type 214 submarines now commissioned. They have not looked backwards. Their submarine force doesn’t have any issues with respect to operating with the United States Navy, which they do on a more regular basis than our submarines.

RADM Doug McAneny said in 2009, “The Koreans are very strong allies in the region. They are frequent participants in many of the multi-lateral and bi-lateral exercises we do in the region and we do sub on sub work with them as well”.

Fight in the Dog

Mark Twain once said … It’s not about the size of the dog in the fight, it’s about the size of the fight in the dog.

It is clear that the ROKN submarine program has been highly successful. The ROKN have been involved in numerous exercises and operations over the past few years from Australia, to Hawaii and beyond – and done very well. They have boats with proven capability, which they are comfortable putting in harm’s way, with courageous, motivated, and well led professional crews.''

SEA 1000 THE LESSONS OF COLLINS - APDR (asiapacificdefencereporter.com)  
  
ROKN has progressed far further since then.  
  
It has the most advanced torpedo in the world.  
  
https://vpk.name/en/1018277_new-south-korean-high-speed-torpedo.html  
  
Also, the most advanced hypersonic cruise ultra stealth smart cruise missile in the world, far more advanced than even Russian Zircon.  
  
https://soj.ooo/p/freethinkers/post/d789bdad4c2d23425db58bdcf105e581  
  
''Your personal attacks and appeals to pride are a weak substitute for factual argumentation. The historical context of US-Korea relations and the current military balance make his claims implausible.''  
  
https://soj.ooo/p/freethinkers/post/ef654aabaec4a5742168660a87a16880

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turkey · 12/13/2025, 8:31:24 PM · permalink

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