Comment on Maranatha by sonatime

Parent Post: Maranatha · In Reply To

sonatime · 12/5/2025, 12:19:55 AM · permalink

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braven · 12/7/2025, 5:04:15 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/8/2025, 10:49:40 AM · permalink

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braven · 12/10/2025, 7:16:46 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/16/2025, 1:27:05 AM · permalink

Part 1  
It all should make sense, for the sake of time and clarity I ended up copy and pasting quite a bit. I introduced some noticing that might be a bit insensitive but a real observation of mine, don't take it the wrong way:) There is order here if you look for it:)  
  
*I like your analogy with Prometheus and Jesus.*
*You give more credit to Jesus, but both are cautionary tales for me.*
  
On a certain level they are cautionary "tales". But it isn't clear to me what do you accept about the "tales" and how that may differ from me.  
   
*We agree on the globalists and the monsters...brutal stuff for sure.*
*Rebellious spirits....not sure about this one...can you name a few?*
  
In the canonical scriptures there are only Satan, Abaddon/Apollyon, Beelzebul, and the group name, Legion.  
In the book of Enoch there are 20 Mentioned by name out of 200.    
  
Fallen angels, demons, rebellious or unclean spirits are pretty much the same entity. The original fallen angles, the watchers, are bound awaiting judgment, but Satan and his demons, "all of the above" are free to roam the earth.   
Revelation 12:7–9 war in heaven, where Satan (the dragon) and his angels are cast out  
Jude 1:6 angels who "did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper abode" and are now kept in eternal bonds (the original fallen angels, the watchers)  
2 Peter 2:4 states God did not spare "angels when they sinned" but cast them into hell (Tartarus) in chains of darkness  
Mark 1:23–27; Luke 4:33–36 — Jesus casts out an unclean spirit.  
Mark 5:1–13 — The Gerasene demoniac possessed by "Legion" (many unclean spirits/demons).  
Acts 16:16–18 — A spirit of divination is cast out.  
  
*If one could resist them...until a savior arrives....that would be good?*
  
Are you wondering why not impound all the evil spirits already?  
Why and when: (I'm copying AI since it captures the idea too well)  
   
"Scripture presents a twofold reason for the delay of final judgment:  
  
God's patience and desire for salvation  
       
2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."    
God is actively holding back the end so that more people have time to hear the Gospel, repent, and be saved. His long-suffering is mercy, not indifference.  
  
The present world cannot indefinitely sustain fallen human life   
  
Though not stated in one single verse, the Bible implies that creation itself is groaning under the weight of sin (Romans 8:20–22) and that human wickedness escalates toward a point where continued existence in its current form becomes unsustainable.  
Jesus describes the days before His return as resembling the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37–39)—widespread violence, corruption, and moral collapse—so severe that, as in Noah's time, judgment becomes the only just and protective response.    
In that sense, the end comes not arbitrarily, but when the accumulation of sin makes the world unlivable in its present state and when God's patient offer of salvation has reached its appointed limit.  
  
The timing remains hidden   
Matthew 24:36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."    
We are called to watchful readiness, not date-setting.  
  
So in short:  
God delays the end out of love, giving every possible opportunity for people to turn to Him. Yet He will not allow sin to ravage His creation and His people forever. When the full number of the elect is gathered (Romans 11:25) and the measure of wickedness reaches its limit, Christ will return—suddenly, gloriously, and right on time. Until then, the door is still open."

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sonatime · 12/16/2025, 1:29:20 AM · permalink

Part 2  
*Your savior is Jesus...yes?*   
  
I don't know what you might perceive by "savior", I would rather quote this scripture:  
Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” (John 14:6)  
God sent His anointed Son, Jesus—the one who perfectly obeyed the Father’s will, offered himself as the complete sacrifice for sins, and was raised from the dead—to open the only path back to the Father. So yes, Jesus is the one through whom God has provided reconciliation, forgiveness, and eternal life. There is no other way God has appointed.  
When Jesus taught, "they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes" (Mark 1:22). The scribes quoted other authorities; Jesus spoke as the source—simply declaring, "Truly, truly, I say to you…"  
  
*What if your Jesus sent you a message or a messenger?  How would you know?*
*Honest questions.*  
  
(There might be more here that interests you but I will cover most)  
Galatians 1:8 — "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."  
Any "new message" contradicting the apostolic Gospel is automatically false—no exceptions, even for angels.  
  
The Bible shows God communicating through audible voices, visions, dreams, angels, and the Holy Spirit in Scripture, but Hebrews 1:1–2 marks a shift: "Long ago... God spoke... by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son." Jesus is God's ultimate revelation, with Scripture as the complete, sufficient Word (2 Timothy 3:16–17; Jude 3; Revelation 22:18–19).  
  
The Bible warns of deception—Satan masquerades as an "angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14), and false prophets exist (Matthew 24:24). Always test claims (1 John 4:1: "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God")  
  
"The fire this time isn’t stolen, it’s judgment and restoration in one. That’s the biblical reality instead of Prometheus fantasy."  
Again, I go with both as fantasy...but all good there.  
  
*However, this is an attractive phrase...*
*The fire this time isn’t stolen, it’s judgment and restoration in one.*

*Quick question?*
*If one took it upon 'an insight' to sit in a brewing storm....intuitive to being struck by lightning...and then staying in the storm until being hit by lightning.*
*Blinding flash....limitless brilliance and insight instantaneously.  (Scar on back of head)*  
  
(for the sake of time, I am unloading some AI discussion here on you again and it is talking to me, it is a part of personal noticing and I don't claim to be correct, it is just what my brain decided to pay attention to, I only have one concussion story from when I was little and I only speculate for fun that I could have been different child/grownup if it didn't happen:))  
  
"Scripture itself commands us to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God" (1 John 4:1) and warns that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).  
Personal, dramatic experiences—no matter how profound or life-changing—are never self-authenticating. They must be judged by something outside themselves.  
  
Your examples are spot-on:  
  
Ellen G. White: After a childhood head injury (rock to the face at age 9, prolonged coma-like state), she began having visions and trances that became the basis for distinctive Seventh-day Adventist doctrines. Many medical historians note that frontal lobe damage or post-traumatic issues can produce vivid hallucinatory states that feel utterly real and authoritative to the person.  
  
Charles Darwin: Chronic illnesses (possibly psychosomatic or neurological) accompanied his intellectual breakthrough. Intense migraines, nausea, and isolation coincided with the development of his theory. He himself wondered if his health affected his thinking.  
  
Near-death experiences, drug-induced visions, temporal lobe epilepsy (which can produce ecstatic religious feelings), concussions, or even lightning strikes—all can generate overwhelming sensations of insight, brilliance, cosmic unity, or divine messages. Neurologically, these often involve massive electrical or chemical disruption in the brain.  
  
The common thread: Subjective intensity does not equal objective truth. Many profound experiences—whether from psychedelics like LSD trips, schizophrenic episodes, or temporal lobe seizures—and we don't take those as reliable revelation. This is why God gave us an external, public, testable anchor: the historical life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, prophesied centuries in advance, witnessed by many, recorded while eyewitnesses still lived, and powerful enough to transform lives without requiring head trauma or trance states. Jesus didn't teach in ecstatic visions to one injured person—He taught openly, in synagogues and hillsides, invited scrutiny ("which of you convicts me of sin?" John 8:46), performed signs in broad daylight, and staked everything on a verifiable event: His resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3–8).  
  
*Would this be a judgement and restoration....or would this be stolen fire?*
*In no way did I feel like I was stealing anything...it was an invitation...and a wondrous gift....but I am curios how you came to that wording....judgement and restoration in this context...brilliant in my experience...literally.*  
  
 I don't think I can judge your personal experience, maybe if you tell me more I might have something to say but not at this time. Thank you for sharing, and this is also why I was digging in my life experiences of my childhood but it is in no way comparable.  
  
When I used "judgement and restoration," I was thinking of the Jesus side of the analogy we started with.  
In the Gospel, the path to restoration (new life, reconciliation with God, true light) goes through judgement—not in the sense of personal condemnation for the one who receives the gift, but because Jesus willingly took the judgment we deserved upon Himself. The cross looks like pure punishment from the outside, yet it was the invited, obedient act that opened the gift of life to everyone else. Prometheus steals fire and is eternally judged for it.  
Jesus submits to judgement and restores fire (life, truth) as a free gift.  
You’re right—your experience felt like a wondrous, invited gift, not theft.  
  
But I still find myself drawn to the Jesus story precisely because the gift came at His cost, not ours—and it was offered openly to all, not in a private flash of brilliance, but in public, verifiable history that anyone can examine.   
 In biblical eschatology, judgment and restoration refer to the climactic events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ, when Jesus returns in glory to finalize God's redemptive plan.  
  
Judgment:  
Christ executes final justice—separating the righteous from the wicked (Matthew 25:31–46), defeating evil (Revelation 19:11–21), and holding all accountable at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11–15). Sin, death, Satan, and unrepentant humanity face eternal consequence.  
  
Restoration:  
After judgment, God completely renews creation, establishing the new heaven and new earth (Isaiah 65:17–25; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21–22). The old cursed order passes away; a new Jerusalem descends, God dwells directly with His people, and every effect of the Fall—sin, sorrow, pain, death—is eradicated ("He will wipe away every tear... no more death or mourning or crying or pain," Revelation 21:4).   
    
 After a while of writing/typing my mind turns to mush:) This is as good as it can get:)  
  
  Maranatha

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braven · 12/16/2025, 1:53:05 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/16/2025, 2:00:49 AM · permalink

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braven · 12/19/2025, 6:09:26 PM · permalink

Time....ahh...that one thing that waits for no man? 😅  
But maybe women?🤣  Magicians when it comes to time....and timing.  
  
I am going to attempt this in pieces...and my sincere apologies for any oversights of importance.  You are making great points, but I am not able to attend to all of them equally so I am going to attempt to get some clarity on the patterns that you are suggesting....and I feel we have some room for increasing our awareness....something like that.  
  
"I don't know what you might perceive by "savior", I would rather quote this scripture:

Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” (John 14:6)"  
  
If Gods want to make great claims...then gods require great proofs.  Yes?  
Jesus left no great proof.   
This is not a trivial aspect of the "lack" in this character in history.  
People know not of that man...yet they worship him?  Odd stuff for sure.  
  
"*God sent His anointed Son, Jesus—the one who perfectly obeyed the Father’s will, offered himself as the complete sacrifice for sins, and was raised from the dead—to open the only path back to the Father. So yes, Jesus is the one through whom God has provided reconciliation, forgiveness, and eternal life. There is no other way God has appointed."*
  
Sacrifice for sins....gaslighting  
Raised from the dead...gaslighting  
Eternal life....gaslighting  
  
For now, we could look at these and see how one could justify making such claims without any credible proof.  
What people of the book describe as Eternal Life....is literally gaslighting...literally.  
It isn't life....what ever it is...it isn't life....come up with a better term?   
Seems necessary.  
  
I will leave it with this...for now.  
Will this "Eternal Life".....last longer than the Garden of Eden did?  
God does not have a good track record of keeping promises...or his word.  
  
Again, my apologies....as this topic seems to require a delicacy of nuance that escapes me when discussing the Biblical God.  Odd stuff for sure.  
Maranatha😇

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sonatime · 12/21/2025, 12:43:19 AM · permalink

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braven · 12/21/2025, 2:49:26 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/22/2025, 9:18:28 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/22/2025, 9:18:49 AM · permalink

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braven · 12/22/2025, 6:06:40 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/22/2025, 7:21:11 PM · permalink

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braven · 12/22/2025, 7:39:35 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/22/2025, 8:49:22 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/25/2025, 8:21:19 PM · permalink

"no great proof" for Jesus  
  
Jesus didn't leave "great proof" in the physical historic sense due to the era he lived in. He left eyewitness testimony, transformed lives, and a faith community that exponentially grew despite persecution.  
Dismissing the resurrection/sacrifice as "gaslighting" because there's no lab report misses how most history is compiled. We accept the existence of historical figures on far less evidence than the New Testament manuscripts and early non-Christian sources give Jesus.  
The "proof" for believers is the empty tomb, and 500 plus witnesses (1 Cor 15) and the apostles dying for what they claimed to see. People don't martyr themselves for a known lie. Scrutiny for great claims is fair. What's your alternative explanation for the rapid spread and persistence of Christianity if it was just gaslighting?  
  
"sacrifice/resurrection/eternal life gaslighting" - redefining eternal life  
  
Calling the core gospel claims "gaslighting" would assumes deliberate manipulation. But if they are true, they would mean the opposite - liberating truth. Eternal life in the Bible isn't "endless existence in this broken state" - it's resurrected, glorified life in a renewed creation - no more sin, death, tears - Rev 21. It's not gaslighting; it's the hope that the current state of the world isn't the conclusion. As for "come up with a better term" - the Bible calls it "life abundant" now and "eternal life" later. What's your preferred term for existence beyond death that isn't just more of this?  
   
God's "track record" and Eden promise  
  
Eden wasn't God breaking a promise, it was the first couple/humanity exercising free will chose to rebel, and God warned exactly what would happen... death entering the world. The "track record" is God promising redemption, sending Jesus to create a path through grace, and history showing that promise unfolding... resurrection and then New Earth. Will eternal life "last longer than Eden"? Yes, in the redeemed state, we'll be "confirmed in goodness" like the loyal angels, fully perfected, with no lingering desire to rebel. Temptation is gone and the sinful nature is no more.  
  
  
 I enjoy the subtly strongly worded observations, keeps me focused and thinking of these spiritual promises. The "gaslighting" label feels extreme for claims that have convinced so many across cultures/time and often at great cost. What's your positive alternative, if not biblical eternal life/reconciliation? What do you see as the actual human condition and endpoint?  
  
Maranatha  
:)

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braven · 12/26/2025, 6:44:34 PM · permalink

Once again, thank you for this.  I might start with your final comment...as to set the 'tone' for what has the potential to be a promising adventure.  
  
How best to share honestly...without too much criticism...without needless offense....with the best of intentions....etc?  
  
While we may strongly disagree on certain topics....it may prove more constructive if we stay respectful and continue showing the level of integrity we have been demonstrating thus far.  All good.  
  
*"I enjoy the subtly strongly worded observations, keeps me focused and thinking of these spiritual promises. The "gaslighting" label feels extreme for claims that have convinced so many across cultures/time and often at great cost."*  
  
This is an extremely nuanced point and I do not want to make light of the suffering of others...often at immense cost.  Yes?  
However, that is precisely why I use strongly worded observations and the term 'gaslighting' in these situations.    
Gaslighting is a powerful tool...and it works.  
  
If we are not willing to call each other out on basic patterns of 'deception' then we risk getting things wrong....right from first principles on this.  
The Bible - if used to explain physical reality...is gaslighting.  
For anyone to use the Bible as an accurate historic text....is gaslighting.  
  
Nonetheless, we **can** use the Bible as a creative book of stories used to uncover patterns of metaphysical 'truths'...but not physical truths.  
Perhaps we should agree on this pattern before we get too much further down this path?  
Let me know how we could best make good use of the Bible?  
  
*"Dismissing the resurrection/sacrifice as "gaslighting" because there's no lab report misses how most history is compiled. We accept the existence of historical figures on far less evidence than the New Testament manuscripts and early non-Christian sources give Jesus."*
  
I am not dismissing those elements...at all.  But they are gaslighting.  
We accept the existence of historical figures...yes....but if they are claiming to be a god, then they require great proof.   
  
  
*The "proof" for believers is the empty tomb, and 500 plus witnesses (1 Cor 15) and the apostles dying for what they claimed to see. People don't martyr themselves for a known lie. Scrutiny for great claims is fair. What's your alternative explanation for the rapid spread and persistence of Christianity if it was just gaslighting?"*
  
Believers do not require *proof*....they have *faith.*   Yes?  
This topic focuses on this point so maybe we can separate the two ...faith vs fact.  
  
  
You can say the empty tomb is 'proof'....but it is not.  It is a *story* that requires *faith*...yes?  
I know you said for 'believers'....just making the words stand on their own merit.  
  
*"...if it was just gaslighting?"*  
Not **'just**' gaslighting...but at the very least....gaslighting.  Something like that.  
  
For now....I will leave this here....as this feels a bit contentious...so your insights, input and feedback are immensely appreciated as we  pour the foundations here.    
Looking forward to bringing these ideas to light.  
Maranatha😇

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sonatime · 12/28/2025, 1:01:57 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/28/2025, 2:30:19 AM · permalink

No worries at all, I’m not offended in the slightest. Feel free to speak plainly and be yourself, honesty in good faith is all I ever ask for.  
  
You’re asking me to reframe the Bible as purely metaphysical insight and set aside its claims to history and physical reality. I’m afraid I can’t do that (hence the HAL 9000 meme ). For me, the Bible isn’t just spiritual poetry or moral teaching, it presents itself as rooted in real events, real people, and a real God who acts in history. Treating it only as metaphysical would feel like removing essential parts of what it claims to be. You called using the Bible as an accurate historic text “gaslighting.” I understand why it can feel that way in a world drowning in competing narratives. Truth often sounds extreme when falsehood is the default setting. But gaslighting requires intent to manipulate and make someone doubt their sanity. I’m not trying to do that, I’m just sharing what I sincerely see. Maybe show a couple concrete examples of where you think the Bible is clearly wrong on history or physical reality. I’m genuinely curious and it’ll help me understand your perspective better. In the meantime, two verses that sum up why I can’t easily compartmentalize it:  
  
Hebrews 4:12 – “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword…”  
2 Timothy 3:16 – “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”  
  
The world does feel upside down right now and turning against “be fruitful and multiply,” against male and female as created realities, against so much of what Scripture lays out. That’s part of why it rings true to me rather than false. Anyway, no pressure, just wanted to explain why I can’t switch and treat it only metaphysically.  
  
Afterthought: I believe the contrast between truth and falsehood is more visible than ever right now. The secular world is saturated with gaslighting and polarizing ideology, the Bible has already been mostly omitted or reinterpreted beyond recognition in many doctrines, yet biblical prophecies seem to be taking shape before our eyes and steadily creeping into reality.  
  
Maranatha (the real one)  
 :)

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