Comment on Maranatha by sonatime

sonatime · 12/25/2025, 8:21:19 PM · permalink

"no great proof" for Jesus  
  
Jesus didn't leave "great proof" in the physical historic sense due to the era he lived in. He left eyewitness testimony, transformed lives, and a faith community that exponentially grew despite persecution.  
Dismissing the resurrection/sacrifice as "gaslighting" because there's no lab report misses how most history is compiled. We accept the existence of historical figures on far less evidence than the New Testament manuscripts and early non-Christian sources give Jesus.  
The "proof" for believers is the empty tomb, and 500 plus witnesses (1 Cor 15) and the apostles dying for what they claimed to see. People don't martyr themselves for a known lie. Scrutiny for great claims is fair. What's your alternative explanation for the rapid spread and persistence of Christianity if it was just gaslighting?  
  
"sacrifice/resurrection/eternal life gaslighting" - redefining eternal life  
  
Calling the core gospel claims "gaslighting" would assumes deliberate manipulation. But if they are true, they would mean the opposite - liberating truth. Eternal life in the Bible isn't "endless existence in this broken state" - it's resurrected, glorified life in a renewed creation - no more sin, death, tears - Rev 21. It's not gaslighting; it's the hope that the current state of the world isn't the conclusion. As for "come up with a better term" - the Bible calls it "life abundant" now and "eternal life" later. What's your preferred term for existence beyond death that isn't just more of this?  
   
God's "track record" and Eden promise  
  
Eden wasn't God breaking a promise, it was the first couple/humanity exercising free will chose to rebel, and God warned exactly what would happen... death entering the world. The "track record" is God promising redemption, sending Jesus to create a path through grace, and history showing that promise unfolding... resurrection and then New Earth. Will eternal life "last longer than Eden"? Yes, in the redeemed state, we'll be "confirmed in goodness" like the loyal angels, fully perfected, with no lingering desire to rebel. Temptation is gone and the sinful nature is no more.  
  
  
 I enjoy the subtly strongly worded observations, keeps me focused and thinking of these spiritual promises. The "gaslighting" label feels extreme for claims that have convinced so many across cultures/time and often at great cost. What's your positive alternative, if not biblical eternal life/reconciliation? What do you see as the actual human condition and endpoint?  
  
Maranatha  
:)

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braven · 12/26/2025, 6:44:34 PM · permalink

Once again, thank you for this.  I might start with your final comment...as to set the 'tone' for what has the potential to be a promising adventure.  
  
How best to share honestly...without too much criticism...without needless offense....with the best of intentions....etc?  
  
While we may strongly disagree on certain topics....it may prove more constructive if we stay respectful and continue showing the level of integrity we have been demonstrating thus far.  All good.  
  
*"I enjoy the subtly strongly worded observations, keeps me focused and thinking of these spiritual promises. The "gaslighting" label feels extreme for claims that have convinced so many across cultures/time and often at great cost."*  
  
This is an extremely nuanced point and I do not want to make light of the suffering of others...often at immense cost.  Yes?  
However, that is precisely why I use strongly worded observations and the term 'gaslighting' in these situations.    
Gaslighting is a powerful tool...and it works.  
  
If we are not willing to call each other out on basic patterns of 'deception' then we risk getting things wrong....right from first principles on this.  
The Bible - if used to explain physical reality...is gaslighting.  
For anyone to use the Bible as an accurate historic text....is gaslighting.  
  
Nonetheless, we **can** use the Bible as a creative book of stories used to uncover patterns of metaphysical 'truths'...but not physical truths.  
Perhaps we should agree on this pattern before we get too much further down this path?  
Let me know how we could best make good use of the Bible?  
  
*"Dismissing the resurrection/sacrifice as "gaslighting" because there's no lab report misses how most history is compiled. We accept the existence of historical figures on far less evidence than the New Testament manuscripts and early non-Christian sources give Jesus."*
  
I am not dismissing those elements...at all.  But they are gaslighting.  
We accept the existence of historical figures...yes....but if they are claiming to be a god, then they require great proof.   
  
  
*The "proof" for believers is the empty tomb, and 500 plus witnesses (1 Cor 15) and the apostles dying for what they claimed to see. People don't martyr themselves for a known lie. Scrutiny for great claims is fair. What's your alternative explanation for the rapid spread and persistence of Christianity if it was just gaslighting?"*
  
Believers do not require *proof*....they have *faith.*   Yes?  
This topic focuses on this point so maybe we can separate the two ...faith vs fact.  
  
  
You can say the empty tomb is 'proof'....but it is not.  It is a *story* that requires *faith*...yes?  
I know you said for 'believers'....just making the words stand on their own merit.  
  
*"...if it was just gaslighting?"*  
Not **'just**' gaslighting...but at the very least....gaslighting.  Something like that.  
  
For now....I will leave this here....as this feels a bit contentious...so your insights, input and feedback are immensely appreciated as we  pour the foundations here.    
Looking forward to bringing these ideas to light.  
Maranatha😇

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sonatime · 12/28/2025, 1:01:57 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 12/28/2025, 2:30:19 AM · permalink

No worries at all, I’m not offended in the slightest. Feel free to speak plainly and be yourself, honesty in good faith is all I ever ask for.  
  
You’re asking me to reframe the Bible as purely metaphysical insight and set aside its claims to history and physical reality. I’m afraid I can’t do that (hence the HAL 9000 meme ). For me, the Bible isn’t just spiritual poetry or moral teaching, it presents itself as rooted in real events, real people, and a real God who acts in history. Treating it only as metaphysical would feel like removing essential parts of what it claims to be. You called using the Bible as an accurate historic text “gaslighting.” I understand why it can feel that way in a world drowning in competing narratives. Truth often sounds extreme when falsehood is the default setting. But gaslighting requires intent to manipulate and make someone doubt their sanity. I’m not trying to do that, I’m just sharing what I sincerely see. Maybe show a couple concrete examples of where you think the Bible is clearly wrong on history or physical reality. I’m genuinely curious and it’ll help me understand your perspective better. In the meantime, two verses that sum up why I can’t easily compartmentalize it:  
  
Hebrews 4:12 – “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword…”  
2 Timothy 3:16 – “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”  
  
The world does feel upside down right now and turning against “be fruitful and multiply,” against male and female as created realities, against so much of what Scripture lays out. That’s part of why it rings true to me rather than false. Anyway, no pressure, just wanted to explain why I can’t switch and treat it only metaphysically.  
  
Afterthought: I believe the contrast between truth and falsehood is more visible than ever right now. The secular world is saturated with gaslighting and polarizing ideology, the Bible has already been mostly omitted or reinterpreted beyond recognition in many doctrines, yet biblical prophecies seem to be taking shape before our eyes and steadily creeping into reality.  
  
Maranatha (the real one)  
 :)

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braven · 12/28/2025, 6:44:32 PM · permalink

"You’re asking me to reframe the Bible as purely metaphysical insight and set aside its claims to history and physical reality. I’m afraid I can’t do that."  
  
Fear not....for the Lord hates a coward. 😅   
...the devil made me do it.  😇  
  
I am not asking you to do that, not really, hope not anyway; however, I am making a qualified statement of fact.  
The Bible is (mostly) gaslighting when used to explain the physical world.   
  
The onus would be on you to 'prove' otherwise....yes?  
I am not the one making great claims....the ones who do....need great proof.  
  
"For me, the Bible isn’t just spiritual poetry or moral teaching, it presents itself as rooted in real events, real people, and a real God who acts in history."  
  
The most important two words in that sentence.....**For me.**  
  
Yes....for you...all good.  I think I have stated that you are likely impervious to the gaslighting....in a manner that Wolverines and Honey Badgers are immune to some unbelievable ass whoopins.    Some of us are impervious...literally.  
  
I have been in more fights than any one hundred men I know...combined.  Yes...a lot of fights.  What makes a good fighter....one quality....the ability to take a beating.     
This topic requires that same tenacious resilience...yes?      
Idea after idea....take the beat down....refine...reformulate....try again.  
Something like that...and here we are.  
  
However,  cough cough....***and a real God who acts in history.***
  
We might need you to explain the difference between a real God and a not real God?  
...how might one differentiate between the two?  
  
For now...I am going to go with humor as much as possible.   
So....in keeping with that thought...  
  
*God who acts in history.*
***God who acts in his story.***
*Yes....this!*
*A story.😇*

I *believe* you are not interested in gaslighting me.  And I appreciate your integrity.  Thank you for sharing that in our communications.  
  
You are asking for concrete examples...but the whole book is one big example for me.  
I will use the quotes you posted above to make this point a bit clearer.  
  
"Hebrews 4:12 – “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword…”

2 Timothy 3:16 – “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”  
  
*Sharper than any two edged sword.*     
I have read the Bible several times, the New Testament as well.  
The word of God is not sharp.  As I have mentioned....most any phrase from that book is easily debated at the level of a competent 7 year old.  The lack of clarity, the overuse of cliche, parables, etc....make the sharp 'meaning' opaque to a creative, intelligent human mind.  
  
...and training in righteousness..."  
This is, perhaps, not such a good thing.   
Perhaps the training should have been in humble intelligent debate.  But righteousness...we can do without.  Often goes hand in hand with righteous condescension.  
I realize that vocabulary of the time, and this time. are not conducive to clear meaning....that being noted....a "God" could have left a message that wasn't obscured throughout time...men...not so much...as we can see.   Something like that.  
  
I really appreciate the path you are taking here.   
I am more than a little hesitant to share my 'opinions' on this subject...this is highly contentious at the best of times....and if history plays out....those who spoke against such things....ended up in not good situations.  Something like that.  
  
"..*.just wanted to explain why I can’t switch and treat it only metaphysically."*
  
I will leave it with this....as there seems to be room for more clarity here.  
*Not only metaphysical....but mostly metaphysical.*   
I know this may contradict my earlier assertion.  However, I am attempting to merge our perceptions into a path that can allow both of us to make good use of the Bible, and yet have our own agency when it comes to....fact vs faith.  Does that seem fair...for now?  
  
Maranatha...yes...the real one.  
😇

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braven · 12/29/2025, 4:38:59 PM · permalink

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