Comment on The Faith Dilemma by braven

Parent Post: The Faith Dilemma

braven · 1/2/2026, 6:05:35 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 1/2/2026, 8:35:13 AM · permalink

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braven · 1/2/2026, 6:26:23 PM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 1/4/2026, 6:36:08 PM · permalink

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braven · 1/4/2026, 6:58:47 PM · permalink

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tajudeen_bin_tijani · 1/5/2026, 9:33:27 AM · permalink

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braven · 1/5/2026, 3:21:05 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 1/2/2026, 9:33:37 AM · permalink

I do appreciate the desire to look for patterns that unite us.  
I’m working through your replies in reverse order tonight, so things might jump around a bit.  
To make it easier on anyone following along (and on ourselves), I think we’re both fine with longer comments when needed. Clarity matters the most, so let’s explain things in detail, even if the replies get a little long. Aiming for understanding first.  
  
Yes, the Kingdom of God is within/among us (Luke 17:21), Christ dwells in His people by the Holy Spirit, making our encounter with Jesus deeply personal, intimate, and from within. No argument there.  
  
But the verse you’re leaning on is often misquoted. Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees and said the Kingdom is “in your midst” or “among you” (the better translation). He meant: “You’re scanning the skies for dramatic signs, but the King is standing right in front of you.” The Kingdom broke into history in the person of Jesus Himself, and it continues wherever He is acknowledged as Lord, especially when His people gather in His name (Matthew 18:20).  
  
So the Kingdom isn’t a subjective spark inside every person that we can reinterpret or rename. Believers do experience it personally through the indwelling Holy Spirit, but that presence is the real, historical, risen Jesus, the Word made flesh, not a generic or customizable “Ideal” we shape to our liking.  
  
That’s why, for me, Maranatha can only mean “Our Lord, come”, the Lord Jesus returning in glory (Revelation 22:20). I can’t adopt a dual usage that redefines it as “Our Ideal Comes” without compromising the exclusivity of Christ that Scripture demands: “No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6) and “there is salvation in no one else” (Acts 4:12).  
  
Afterthoughts:  
Pharisees ask: “When is the kingdom of God coming?” (They expect a visible, political, messianic overthrow of Rome.)  
  
Jesus replies (Luke 17:20–21):  
ESV: “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”  
NIV: “…for the kingdom of God is in your midst.”  
NASB: “…for behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”  
KJV / NKJV: “…for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”  
  
the Greek phrase can mean:“inside/within” (as in inside a person)  
“among/in the midst of” (as in within a group)  
  
Most modern scholars and translations favor “in the midst of you” or “among you” because of the context and audience.  
  
Why “in the midst of you” (or “among you”) is the better reading  
  
Audience: Jesus is speaking to hostile Pharisees who do not have the Kingdom within them personally. He calls them hypocrites, whitewashed tombs, children of hell elsewhere. It would be absurd for Him to tell them “the Kingdom is inside your hearts.”  
  
Meaning: Jesus is saying: “You’re looking for dramatic signs and a visible revolution, but the Kingdom is already here—standing right in your midst.” That is, He Himself is the King, and where the King is, there is the Kingdom. The Kingdom has broken into history in His person, His words, His miracles.  
  
Parallel teaching: In Matthew 12:28 Jesus says, “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.” Same idea—the Kingdom arrives with Jesus’ ministry.  
  
Scholarly consensus: Commentators from Augustine to modern ones (N.T. Wright, Darrell Bock, Craig Keener, etc.) overwhelmingly interpret it as “in your midst/among you,” not “within you individually.”  
  
The KJV’s “within you” is an older translation choice that has stuck in popular memory, but it’s misleading in this context.  
  
Maranatha - come, Lord Jesus  
:)

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braven · 1/2/2026, 6:17:04 PM · permalink

Again....excellent points being made here...thank you for sharing this.  
  
"*So the Kingdom isn’t a subjective spark inside every person that we can reinterpret or rename. Believers do experience it personally through the indwelling Holy Spirit, but that presence is the real, historical, risen Jesus, the Word made flesh, not a generic or customizable “Ideal” we shape to our liking."*
  
*The Kingdom isn't a subjective spark....that we can reinterpret or rename?*
This is not easily interpreted.  Heavy lifting here.  
Someone, at some time....named it?   
And now others cannot?  Sounds like Islam...yes?  No more interpreters?  Odd stuff.  
  
However, from a personal take....here is a point we might find potential growth of patterns.  
*...not a generic or customizable “Ideal” we shape to our liking."*  
To start...it is interesting that you suggest I am shaping an Ideal *to my liking.*  Something like that...yes?  
Not suggesting any negativity on your part....just making an observation that others might overlook.  
  
It would be a mistake to shape an *Idea*l to our liking....yes.  Not a good pattern of existence.  
That is what men have done with Jesus and God...yes?  The anthropomorphic nature of man....something like that?  
  
The "Ideal" reveals itself.  It is not man made.  We discussed this a bit in the other post.  
I am not inventing this...it is revealing itself through me.  Something like that.  
I participate at every level that I can be consciously aware of, which is extremely limited, but I am a contributor and collaborator....not the 'source'.   
  
Your inclusion of verses involving Jesus...and his message....make it clear, to me, that Jesus was not a god....let alone God.  A god would require better communication skills.  The God....almost impossible to believe that people believe in this archetype....so profoundly underwhelming in every aspect of metaphysical to physical representation.  Yet, we can use this archetype to expose the patterns of manipulation.  
The Bible, has lessons we can learn from....but again...mostly of cautionary tales and the abuse of gaslighting by those who wish to dominate... subjugate others.  
  
Which is why I find that pattern of *Maranatha* quite intriguing. But at the same time...troubling.    
Some people are quite viciously protective, murderously protective of their 'religion'.   
If that word...Maranatha....has only 'Christian' meaning....which is also convoluted in its etymology...yes?...then it is best if I don't use it in a way that will not be accepted by others...seems like it should be possible for others to use...as a powerful word....with meaning deeper than most can fathom...yes?  
  
If you take into account that an Ideal....can be an ultimate Ideal....and that Ideal can be universal.  
What would that Ideal look like...what pattern would emerge?   
It does not look like any pattern in the Bible or New Testament....not to me.  
But if you can find any metaphysical advice in either...that directly relates to physical manifestation....those would be some good patterns to discuss further.   
  
For example....If Jesus walked on water...and taught all the apostles to walk on water.  And they in turn taught everyone else to walk on water...and now...we could all walk on water....all good....yes?  All praise Jesus....greatly appreciated.  
  
Why didn't Jesus question his inability to teach that skill to others?  The water to wine....that would be useful...yes?  
  
Again, thank you for sharing your insights here....profoundly thought provoking.  
Peace.😇

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