Comment on [deleted by author] by carp30mnia

carp30mnia · 2/24/2025, 10:38:34 AM · permalink

I agree with you on multiple points. Jews are a resilient, resourceful, and intelligent people worth celebrating and protecting. It goes without saying that Jews (especially Ashkenazi) have played significant roles throughout European history and sciences. Even religiously, Jews themselves may be seen in a way as the 'divorced' forefathers of Christianity. By that I mean, the Jews who stuck with the original version of Judaism versus the 'revolutionized' version Jesus preached. There would be no Christianity without the first Jews who converted/developed Christianity, but there would have been Jews without Christianity. On it's face, Europe's traditional values are aptly discussed as 'Judeo-Christian' for a reason.  
  
I have similar difficulties with determining my (honestly irrelevant) opinion on Zionism and to be honest can't say I'm studied enough about it to have an opinion one way or another. But like every movement it has it's good eggs and bad ones. On its face though, it appears to me as a nationalist movement whose primary function is protective. And while others might disagree, I don't believe nationalism is innately negative so long as you aren't hypocritical in not allowing other groups to practice the same for their own kind and you don't violate human rights (i.e. Nazi Germany).  
  
To me the most unclear thing about Zionism is what it means when it speaks about 'Israel'. Who or what is it?  How far and to what reach does it equate 'the holy land' to Jewish People/ Jewish Nation/ Jewish governance. To what end is a land not just 'land' but a 'homeland', and how much is it then defined by or for it's designated people? Here's my disorganized thoughts below.  
  
**Israel as a protective ethnostate for a disenfranchised people?**  
I've no problem with this. Every ethnic group of people deserves a homeland, a safe space to thrive. Israel was established as a home for Jewish people, and they deserve it  (especially for all the persecution they've endured). Yet despite their ethno-state status, they are still largely tolerant of the minority non-Jews among them. Of course Jews are not of one opinion and they have their share of supremacists/ radical Zionists.   
Besides, show me a group of humans of any creed or race that doesn't have a supremacist faction. When it starts to become a true concern is when that supremacism is adopted as mainstream and turns homicidal... i.e. Nazi/genocidal-level. This is hotly debated, but no I don't think Israel in it's current actions has committed 'genocide'.  
  
The fact is war is heinous in of itself, there's never a truly 'clean way' to commit it. But you can make it more palatable by trying to avoid especially unjust or excessively cruel 'war crimes'. However, as is the nature of war, people on both sides will escalate towards worse acts.

In this instance, Israelis (Jewish and non-Jewish alike) are definitely teetering towards more shows of violent force the more they become attacked and radicalized by loss--- worsened by the fact that your enemy doesn't consider you as human or care about your rights while you're repeatedly and endlessly asked to care about said enemys' by the larger global stage. And the moral framework to which nations must ascribe in their treatment of neighbours has been largely defined by European/West powers.   
  
%%Verdict A: A home is worth fighting for, even violently.%% which leads me too...  
  
**Israel as a people and pride: nationalism clashing with Europe's Suicidal Empathy/ Moral Police?**  
Isreali's attempts at proactive self-defense after being attacked, reminds me of migrant-vs-native tensions in Europe. Ex: how ethnic Europeans increasingly experience terror attacks from immigrants and people rush to the defense of the group the immigrants belong to instead of the natives being attacked (Gee, does that sound familiar?). The victims are brushed off and forgotten as 'collateral damage' of multiculturalism for being the 'oppressor' group, even when they're the ones being victimized. When deportation is somehow a greater evil than rape or murder, you've lost the plot.  
  
The difference is while native Europeans are being disenfranchised in their 'land' by their own self-hating people and largely aren't supported by their own governments, Israelis thankfully do not hate themselves and are supported by their representatives so that an Israeli death actually matters and has consequences. This is necessary to avoid and prevent future tragedies. And that makes Israel government frankly healthy and far superior in their priorities compared to whatever crack Europeans are on. But Europe seems to want to project their own self-hatred and suicidality onto Jews so that they may be just as defenseless against other groups that wish to destroy them (i.e. Hamas).  But Israel has an absolute right to self-defense of their citizens. Nations like England who can't comprehend this basic concept should have zero say.  
  
It is not more humane for Jews to have no place to call home which prioritize them and their needs, even if they must go to war to defend it. I carry the same belief for any other ethnic group (including yes, Europeans).

Anything else is a globalist take where humans are indistinguishable economic units with no meaningful ties to a culture or land only meant to serve the chosen elite (who are at best irreligious, or at worst, occult fanatics). I dislike 'no borders' on principle that it is anti-human nature disguised as 'more humane' for one size fits all to culture and society that globalists idealize (damn boring if you ask me). So yes, when I go to Israel, I wish to see Jews. Not anything but. Israeli looks at that and thinks it's crazy. Because it is.

%%Verdict B: Zionism is a movement that largely promotes Jewish interests and pride that is in short supply globally. This is rational and objectively good (so long as not taken to extremes)%%. And just because mostly likely all supremacists would be Zionists, does not mean all Zionists are supremacists.

**Israel as a functional/reasonable government?**

Nobody should love governments, it inevitably attracts sociopaths and power-starved in my opinion. That said,  Israel has been successful to a large degree for it's people, which is a governments' primary function. Example achievements:

\- %%Economy%%: Israel's economy has grown remarkably. It now has a per capita national income among the highest in the world and has experienced some of the highest rates of economic growth globally.

\- %%Scientific and Technological Innovations%%: Israel has contributed to numerous scientific advancements, including the development of the Copaxone drug for treating multiple sclerosis, the Pillcam for capsule endoscopy, and the Israeli Bandage for stopping bleeding from traumatic injuries.

\- %%Military Defense Systems%%: Israel has developed advanced defense systems like the Iron Dome missile defense system, which has achieved a 90 percent success rate in intercepting short-range rockets fired from Gaza.  
  
However, a government is also judged by its actions against its allies and its minorities. And true to history, no government is immune from corruption. Since this is a positive thread, I'll keep the references down to 3 unrelated to the current conflict: the USS Liberty attack comes to mind (of which a few Jewish-American soldiers were among the victims); the scandal of Ethiopian Jews who were intentionally sterilized via vaccination;  and the connection between Mossad and Epstein. Of course, false-flags, eugenics (clearly there is an prioritized ethnic-type of Jew), etc. while awful don't make Israel unique in awfulness. Plenty of non-Jewish history to pull from for evidence of that. But it's a good reminder that all people are equal in capability for evil. But for whatever reason, when Jews do something remotely negative it's a 'special kind of evil' that deserves punishments and global retaliation whereas human rights abuses that take place in places like China get off for scott-free. Such double standards are ridiculous.  
  
%%Verdict C: Israeli government is mostly good to its people (positive) but it needs a clean-up for corruption like every government out there. But it doesn't mean Israel as a state for Jewish people should ever dissolve.%%  
  
Ultimately I would define Zionism as a sort of Jewish nationalism tied to land they historically/religiously identify with, in conflict with global interests that seeks to erase borders. Regardless, Jews are resilient. Israel and Zionism will persist so long as there are Jews that wish it so. Zionism has been largely positive for a group that has up till now had little safety or security, it's enough for me not to write it off. I think the more important distinction is to judge a Zionists/nationalist as a good or bad person individually instead of painting every Zionist in the same brush. But if it were ever to come to pass that Zionism grows too out of hand and genocides are committed in the name of it --- or the movement in majority hypocritically believes in only nationalism for themselves and a globalist order for everyone else, I will rescind this opinion. Not to condemn Jewish nationalism as a whole, but rather that specific brand popularized as 'Zionism'.  
  
Because even judging a group on an individual basis, enough rotten apples ruins the basket. And it's time to start fresh even if it means picking the same kind of fruit (nationalism) just from a healthier tree (a source other than supremacy).  
To be clear, the basket is specifically in regards to ideas/ideological movements which people can leave/enter at will, not ethnic groups as a whole who always carry diverse opinions. There are plenty Jews who are anti-Zionists afterall. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-zionism-among-jews

109 bumps

gehstur · 4/4/2025, 9:11:09 PM · permalink

5 bumps

rusalka · 12/8/2025, 2:19:01 AM · permalink

3 bumps

gehstur · 12/10/2025, 10:00:21 AM · permalink

1 bump

thoughtcriminal_1984 · 2/24/2025, 1:55:47 PM · permalink

70 bumps

carp30mnia · 2/24/2025, 7:07:10 PM · permalink

61 bumps

thoughtcriminal_1984 · 2/24/2025, 7:10:36 PM · permalink

27 bumps

carp30mnia · 2/25/2025, 12:16:56 AM · permalink

Ok, I can see how stubbornly adhering to religious practices that have the risk of harming a child... could come across as religiously-indoctrinated sociopathy. But how would you make a distinction between 'sociopaths' without morals to begin with... versus 'believers' succumbing to the social pressure of 'tradition' who have been told it is 'morally good'? Religion is never fully rationale to begin with.  
  
That said, any permanent bodily modification (minor male genital mutilation in this case) practiced on infants should be judged simply for the fact that a child cannot consent and it is often NOT medically necessary (mostly cosmetically/religiously motivated here). But there are nuances amongst the Jewish community regarding both this (A) and even circumcision as a whole (B).

**A)** Mentioned in the article, **Metzitzah b'peh** is the Jewish practice of the mohel (ritual circumciser) sucking blood after circumcision from the wound. It's controversial due to health concerns, like transmission of harmful viruses like herpes (HSV-1), which can cause serious illness, brain damage, or even death in infants. There is no proven way to eliminate this risk (not even mouthwash).   
%%Thankfully it has low prevalence%%:  The practice of metzitzah b'peh is actually relatively rare and is primarily confined to certain Ultra-Ultra Orthodox sects and communities. In mainstream Orthodox Judaism, as well as in Conservative and Reform Judaism, this practice is not commonly performed.  
  
**B) Circumcision** itself, while still largely common, has started to be questioned even by members of Jewish communities, and there is a new, kinder alternative: Brit Shalom.

%%A growing number of contemporary Jews / Intactivist Jewish groups in the US and Israel that question overall long-term effects, psychological and psychophysical consequences of trauma caused by circumcision on children, and choose not to circumcise their sons.%%  "...A few Reform, Liberal, and Reconstructionist rabbis... have developed a welcoming ceremony that they call the Brit shalom ("Covenant \[of\] Peace") for such children, also accepted by Humanistic Judaism."  
  
**My opinion?**  The more that the outdated practice of circumcision (and related rituals like Metzitzah b'peh) are abandoned, the better the quality of life and safety for male infants. So it has less to do with sociopathy and more to do with outdated religious customs conflicting with health practices and boy's bodily autonomy... which thankfully more Jews/non-Jews are beginning to acknowledge and reconsider.

21 bumps

thoughtcriminal_1984 · 2/25/2025, 12:21:55 AM · permalink

15 bumps

nataliegotchu · 12/8/2025, 2:31:26 AM · permalink

1 bump

natehughes · 4/3/2025, 11:40:13 AM · permalink

3 bumps

nataliegotchu · 12/8/2025, 2:30:58 AM · permalink

1 bump

natehughes · 4/3/2025, 11:35:08 AM · permalink

1 bump

natehughes · 4/3/2025, 11:33:13 AM · permalink

1 bump

nataliegotchu · 12/8/2025, 2:28:13 AM · permalink

1 bump

natehughes · 4/2/2025, 5:37:59 PM · permalink

2 bumps

thoughtcriminal_1984 · 2/24/2025, 7:12:21 PM · permalink

27 bumps

carp30mnia · 2/26/2025, 1:36:06 AM · permalink

Finished watching. Interview responses were mixed, and yeah there were some supremacist views. But the 2 supposed 'Talmud' verses about cheating or killing 'goyim' were rejected across the board and labeled untrue.  
  
**Biggest wtf:** (by Hassidic anti-Zionist group) "Non-jews are made by god so they will serve the Jews. All non-Jews you see around the world exist for the Jews' benefit. Jews are currently in Exile, so non-Jews don't serve them completely, only partly now. When the Messiah comes, they'll have thousands \[2800 non-Jew\] slaves." Then someone said they'd actually be 'willing' servants? *Uhhh, yeah if they develop Stockholm syndrome.*

**Faith-in-humanity pills:**  
\- A few interviewed with little to say (likely less studied in the Talmud) didn't know what the interviewer was talking about and were bothered by the extreme verses.

\-Even the (Hassidic anti-Zionist group who'd talked about non-Jew 'servants') said killing or cheating non-Jews was forbidden and seemed genuinely appalled by the very idea (which the last rabbi also confirms). *Small silver lining.* Also:  
![image](https://us-lax-1.linodeobjects.com/sojooo/comments/2410/1740533766437-684cc9774735715a.png)
*Apology accepted, but concerning that he had to remain anonymous to say it.*

\- And Last interviewee (Rabbi Yitzhak Brietowitz Hassidic non-Zionist) was the most interesting by far. He seemed the most level-headed and well-studied. He also confirmed that killing/cheating non-Jews was forbidden. I liked most of his answers, and his response when asked about the group from earlier got me thinking:

*"Although I sharply dissociate myself with that philosophy, historically it has been understood that we are a group of people that have been persecuted/ tortured/ \[etc.\] in the holocaust just less than a hundred years ago... To this very day, there are people who want to wipe off the face of the earth --- so if the Jew has a certain chip on his shoulder, and a certain resentment to the non-Jewish world... although I disagree with that philosophically, I can understand it emotionally. You know when you've beaten down, and people are murdering your children, raping your wives, and this has taken place over thousands of years... There's gonna be a certain natural antipathy towards those other groups. Therefore I don't want to cast blame on people that sometimes may have a certain amount of a prejudice. I don't think that is the ultimate idea that the Torah, Judaism, and the Talmud wants us to have, but it is understandable."*  
  
If Jewish persecution has radicalized some Jews (as would believably happen to any other group), what's the solution? And btw I don't believe that reactionary self-defense is evil; depends on the execution.

20 bumps

nataliegotchu · 12/8/2025, 2:12:59 AM · permalink

2 bumps

nataliegotchu · 12/8/2025, 2:07:39 AM · permalink

1 bump

natehughes · 4/2/2025, 5:37:22 PM · permalink

2 bumps

Signature