Comment on Angels and demons and spirits. Oh my! by sonatime

Parent Post: Angels and demons and spirits. Oh my! · In Reply To

sonatime · 6/19/2026, 9:06:01 AM · permalink

*"You're simply being dishonest. Prevaricating to support an idea which is not in the text, but which you wish was there"*  
  
I’m not being dishonest. My biblical worldview doesn’t fall apart when I read these verses or the entire Old Testament in context.  
  
Your view, on the other hand, depends on ripping one verse out of context and forcing it to undermine human consent and due process. It looks like you’ve built (or were sold) a very fragile foundation.  
  
Again, see Numbers 15.  
  
Verses 1–21: These are new supplementary instructions about offerings that the Israelites are to observe once they enter the Promised Land.   
It covers grain/drink offerings that accompany animal sacrifices.  
Then the “firstfruits” offering from the dough/bread of the land.  
These are forward-looking laws tied to settled agricultural life in Canaan.  
  
Verses 22 onward: The chapter shifts to the topic of sin offerings - specifically unintentional sins (sins of ignorance or omission).  
Verse 22 says:  **“If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the LORD has spoken to Moses…”**  
This refers back to the commandments already given through Moses (primarily from Exodus, Leviticus, and earlier parts of Numbers). It’s not introducing brand-new moral laws here, but providing the procedure for atonement when the people (either the whole congregation or an individual) unintentionally fail to keep the existing ones.  
  
Verses 22–29 explicitly lay out the law for unintentional sins and how they can be atoned for. Verses 30–31 immediately shift to define a defiant sin—someone who sins "with a high hand" and "despises the word of the Lord." The text states this person must be cut off.   
  
Verses 32–36 (the stick-gatherer) follow immediately after. This is not a coincidence or a mistake. The narrative is a demonstration of what a "high-handed," defiant violation of an established law looks like. It serves as the legal precedent for the abstract law just given.   
  
Your claim that the laws didn't apply in the wilderness is textually impossible. While verses 1–21 look forward to future agricultural offerings in the land (since you cannot harvest grain in a desert), verse 22 explicitly shifts back to the present, covering "all these commandments which the Lord has spoken." The Sabbath was already active and binding \[Exodus 16, Exodus 20\]. Claiming they didn't have to keep the Sabbath in the desert completely contradicts the entire narrative.  
  
Holding a suspect in custody because the explicit execution method or exact categorization is unclear, and then seeking a formal ruling is the literal definition of due process. It is the exact same judicial procedure found in Leviticus 24 and Numbers 27. It is a structured legal inquiry, not an arbitrary whim. When God renders judgment, it is clear the stick-gatherer committed a defiant act, and the specific type of execution is clarified. That is all God needed to communicate to be understood.   
  
*"And the entire nature of the story is one of ignorance, clearly. Unarguably. None of that instruction throughout Numbers 15 tells them they are to bring possible law breakers to face the judgement of God himself. Not any of it"*  
  
Claiming that appealing to God shows "ignorance" because Numbers 15 didn't explicitly tell them to do so. This completely misses how the biblical legal system was instructed to operate.  
  
The framework for this exact situation was already established in Exodus 18:22, which legally organized the courts: "And let them judge the people at all times. Every great matter they shall bring to you, but any small matter they shall decide themselves.  
"When Moses acting as the supreme human judge hit a procedural gap in a "great matter," he took it to the ultimate legal authority.  
  
Far from "ignorance," holding the suspect in custody and appealing to God because they had the unique ability to do so sets a perfect example of due process. It proves they refused to act as a lynch mob. They waited for an official, binding ruling from the highest authority to ensure the law was executed exactly as intended.  
  
*"And, again, as is blatantly obvious, you can't have consent to whatever the hell is made up after "consent" is given."*
  
Your argument about "consent to whatever is made up after" fails textually. The wilderness generation ratified the specific laws in Exodus 24:3–7 ("All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do"), the agricultural laws were simply paused until they had the physical means to fulfill them, and the next generation actively renewed their own consent in Deuteronomy 29–30 before entering the land.  
  
You are forced to claim the text is "jammed in" because the actual, unified structure of the chapter completely contradicts your argument. Your argument doesn't rely on the text; it relies on slicing it into pieces to fit a preconceived narrative of raw tyranny.  
  
*"And, let's just examine what they "consented" to in that abjectly stupid lie you made about them agreeing to the law. Again. not the fantasy you present, but the actual text you prevaricate about because... well, because you just can't believe your sensibilities are different than theirs"*  
  
 I have covered this already earlier. Your take relies on cutting the story off early. In Exodus 24:3–7, Moses writes down all the actual laws, reads them aloud to the entire population, and the people explicitly consent a second time, saying, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do." You are ignoring the actual contract signing.  
  
*"That's what they supposedly agreed to. Not "the law" as you so deceptively presented. First the obvious threat. "You see what I did to the Egyptians." Could happen to you. Then the soft-soap: "I delivered you". Now you be my cult."*
  
You are forcing modern biases onto an ancient text; these are not psychological manipulation tactics. Reminding them of Egypt is not a threat. It is God inspiring confidence in the Israelites by highlighting their liberation and guaranteeing their future protection. You are projecting your own biases onto the text simply to arrive at a preconceived conclusion.  
  
*"In Malachi it specifies that Jacob was loved and Esaus despised. Much, much later, someone writing as Paul adds to your problem with more context in Romans chapter 9 when he makes it plain that God just does what God does. and to hell with your consent or individuation"*

Malachi 1:2-3 (“Jacob I loved, Esau I hated”) is not about God arbitrarily loving one individual and damning the other. It’s about two nations centuries later: Israel (descendants of Jacob) and Edom (descendants of Esau). God is saying He chose Jacob’s line for His covenant purposes and brought judgment on Edom for their hostility toward Israel. “Love/hate” here is covenant language meaning “chosen vs. not chosen for this role”, not personal eternal hatred.  
  
Paul in Romans 9 quotes Malachi for the same reason: to show God’s sovereign right to choose the line of promise (through Isaac → Jacob → Israel → Messiah) according to His purpose, not based on human merit. The chapter is about God’s plan for redemptive history and the inclusion of Gentiles, not a declaration that God randomly sends people to hell without regard for their response.  
  
Nowhere does Paul say “to hell with your consent or individuation.” He repeatedly affirms human responsibility, calls people to repent and believe, and says God desires all to be saved (Romans 2, 10, 1 Timothy 2:4).  
   
You are heavily invested in a position that the text simply does not support. Many people here rely on "gotcha" biblical takes and repeat them ignorantly without interest, while many Christians view scripture through a narrow denominational lens. I have no personal motive here other than looking at the text honestly. The message of the Bible is uplifting, but it is also grounded in worldly reality and consequences. It presents a God of justice, but ultimately a God "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

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