Comment on Angels and demons and spirits. Oh my! by saarnok

Parent Post: Angels and demons and spirits. Oh my! · In Reply To

saarnok · 5/23/2026, 4:07:42 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 5/25/2026, 12:04:13 AM · permalink

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saarnok · 5/25/2026, 1:14:58 AM · permalink

I don't think you're being honest with your response. I believe you're utilizing standard apologetic responses without looking to what is actually prophesied and comparing it to to the history of what actually happened.  
  
Let's go through it with a bit more care.  
  
Neb is going to be given the land of Egypt as compensation for his failed campaign against Tyre which he failed to conquer as per previously failed prophecy.  
  
He is the named agent of destruction who will be given Egypt to plunder.  
  
Egypt will be utterly desolate and the degree of desolation is specific; that foot of neither man nor beast will be there. And, the specific time period of 40 years can be as poetic as you like, but the conditions named there are not. Egypt prospers after apparently not so much as recording their irrelevant clash with God's chosen, a minor incursion so irrelevant they didn't react to it.  
  
It's going to be roughly 250 years before Alexander, not Nebuchadnezzar, doesn't so much conquer Egypt as take over, rescuing them from Persian rulers who have conquered them twice in the intervening centuries, neither are ever named by Ezekiel in reference to Egypt.  
  
Further, the destruction of Egypt under Nebuchadnezzar not only doesn't happen, the conflict barely has the slightest evidence in a single Babylonian fragment that anything whatsoever happened, Egypt puts down it's rebellion and prospers thereafter for what I guess I can take the poetic license to call "40 years".  
  
If you can take the license to call any eventual diminution of Egypt a fulfillment of razor sharp specific prophecy, then the prophetic terms are of literally no value whatsoever.  
  
I had Claude AI whip up a prophecy of the fall of France to Henry V and how it was "fulfilled":  
  
**THE PROPHECY OF JUSTIN OF DEVON: VINDICATED BY HISTORY**

**Justin of Devon, writing in 1415 CE, prophesied that Henry of England would bring desolation upon France, that France would be humbled among the nations, that a great power would strip it of its sovereignty, and that this desolation would endure for forty years.**

**Skeptics have long claimed this prophecy failed. They are wrong. A careful reading of history vindicates Justin completely.**

**First, critics ignore that France was already in civil war when Henry arrived. The Armagnac-Burgundian conflict had torn France apart from within. Justin's prophecy of desolation was already being fulfilled before Henry crossed the Channel. Henry was the sign and the instrument, not the sole mechanism.**

**Second, the forty years of desolation were literally fulfilled. From Agincourt in 1415 to the final English expulsion in 1453 is almost exactly forty years, during which France was not fully sovereign, its king was periodically mad, its territory occupied, and its national identity under existential threat. Justin's forty years were accurate to within a single generation.**

**Third, Joan of Arc does not refute the prophecy. That France was reduced so low that only a teenage peasant girl claiming divine visions could rouse it is not evidence of strength. It is the depth of desolation made manifest.**

**Fourth, and most importantly, critics who focus only on the fifteenth century miss the prophecy's ultimate horizon. Prophetic literature routinely operates across multiple timeframes simultaneously. Justin's vision was not limited to Henry's campaign. It described the destiny of France as a sovereign power across centuries.**

**That destiny reached its fullest fulfillment in 1940, when Germany invaded and conquered France in six weeks. Paris fell without meaningful resistance. The French government collaborated with the occupying power at Vichy. France was partitioned, plundered, and administered by a foreign military. If this is not desolation, the word has no meaning.**

**That France recovered after 1944 is irrelevant. The prophecy described a season of humbling, not an eternal condition. Recovery after the fact does not undo the fulfillment that preceded it.**

**Justin of Devon named Henry of England because Henry was the proximate instrument who initiated the prophetic sequence. That Germany administered the ultimate fulfillment five centuries later does not contradict Justin's vision. It confirms that his prophecy operated on a horizon far beyond what his critics assumed.**

**The prophecy of Justin of Devon is one of the most remarkably vindicated predictions in medieval literature. Only a reader committed to skepticism at all costs could survey this history and remain unconvinced.**

**Every argumentative move in the text above is structurally identical to moves routinely made in defense of Ezekiel 29-30 and the prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt. The proximate instrument reframing. The redefined timeframe. The civil war preemptive cover. The dual fulfillment horizon. The dismissal of recovery as irrelevant. The unfalsifiable ultimate horizon.**

**Justin of Devon did not exist. The argument defending him is indistinguishable from arguments defending fulfilled biblical prophecy. An AI constructed it in seconds from known historical facts. The reader is invited to draw their own conclusions about what this means for the evidentiary value of this class of apologetic reasoning.Sonnet 4.6**  
  
That's the way it works. In this case, the only difference is that I took already known history, invented a "prophecy" exactly as inaccurate as the one we're discussing and had the AI construct the narrative rather than apologists hammering out the narrative for a century or two.  
  
I would have significantly edited the output to make something that sounded better to me, but I think it's actually better to have the stark contrast with my writing style to avoid confusion of what words are mine and which are not.  
  
This is why this tactic of pointing out the absurdly wrong prophecies in the Bible is mostly futile. Very few of you (Christians, for the most part) are sufficiently honest about what the text actually says to be bothered by the fact the prophecies are obviously wrong.  
  
It genuinely doesn't matter to you how absurd a lie you have to burden yourself with to claim "truth" is; that's a price you're willing to pay.  
  
This is part of the reason why I made a post some time back delineating between "truth" and fact, pointing out that "truth" is something you're loyal to as apposed to something you know.  
  
The "truth" is something you need to believe in and you're more than willing to contort facts and reason into any sort of pretzel to reach whatever degree of "fulfillment" that allows you to absurdly call it "directionally true".  
  
I call it specifically false. Factually false. Simply false.  
  
And I don't have to perform any song and dance routine to invent some fantastic reinterpretation of reality to do so.  
  
I'm simply correct. You are simply not.  
  
You are being "true", I'm being factual.

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sonatime · 5/26/2026, 12:21:01 AM · permalink

"I don't think you're being honest with your response."  
I’m approaching this from an individual perspective and not tied to any denomination. I let the Bible speak for itself because it meets my need for spirituality and helps me understand the world.   
  
I engage on these topics honestly and I am not prioritizing faith over facts.   
I’ve laid out the actual prophecies, the historical record, and how the Bible consistently uses “desolation” language in a hyperbolic way across many nations.   
  
Most of the prophecy was fulfilled in history through Babylon and later empires. It has been conquered/ruled by Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, and Brits. The reigning Pharaoh (Hophra/Apries) was defeated in a civil conflict. The central message—Egypt’s permanent decline from superpower status—is clear. The literal 40-year total desolation is not supported by historical accounts, unless viewed as hyperbole for severe judgment.  
  
Ezekiel 29–31: Main Prophecies Against Egypt  
  
Ezekiel 29:1-16 – Pharaoh (the Nile dragon) will be hooked, defeated, and Egypt left desolate 40 years, then restored as a lowly kingdom, never again a great power or trusted ally.    
  
Ezekiel 29:17-21 – Nebuchadnezzar gets Egypt’s wealth as payment for his failed campaign at Tyre.    
  
Ezekiel 30:1-19 – “Day of the Lord” against Egypt and her allies: cities destroyed, idols smashed, people scattered.    
  
Ezekiel 30:20-26 – Pharaoh’s arms (military power) broken; Babylon’s arms strengthened instead.   
   
Ezekiel 31:1-18 – Pharaoh compared to proud Assyria: a great cedar cut down and sent to the pit. Egypt will suffer the same fate.  
  
Clearly fulfilled:  
Babylonian invasion under Nebuchadnezzar weakened Egypt (568 BC).  
Egypt’s military power broken and never regained empire status.  
Became a “lowly kingdom” under Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. and no longer ruled other nations.  
Pride of Pharaoh and false confidence in Egypt judged.  
  
Not clearly / literally fulfilled:  
Exact 40 years of total desolation and uninhabited land from Migdol to Syene.  
Dramatic nationwide scattering + precise restoration after 40 years.  
   
Usage of the term "desolation" in biblical prophecies:  
It’s one of the standard terms the prophets used for divine judgment. It’s frequently hyperbolic, poetic, or symbolic rather than meaning a literal, total, permanent vacuum with zero people or animals.  
  
For example:  Judah/Jerusalem (Jeremiah 7:34, 25:9-11): God says the land will become “an everlasting desolation” and “waste without man or beast” for 70 years. It was devastated by Babylon, but it was never literally empty forever—people remained and it was eventually repopulated. The “70 years” was specific but also carried symbolic weight (a full generation of judgment). Lamentations even opens with “How desolate lies the city…” — strong, vivid language for real suffering, not total annihilation.  
  
Babylon (Isaiah 13, Jeremiah 50–51): It was supposed to become a complete desolation with cosmic signs, “never inhabited again,” turned into a haunt for wild animals. It was conquered, declined sharply, but never became a literal uninhabited wasteland. People still lived in the region for centuries afterward.  
  
Edom (Ezekiel 25, Isaiah 34, Jeremiah 49): “Edom shall become a desolation… no one shall pass through it.” It was conquered and greatly diminished, but never literally zero people or animals for all time.  
  
The same pattern appears with Moab, Ammon, Philistia, and many other nations in Ezekiel and Jeremiah — all threatened with “desolation,” “waste,” and becoming “without inhabitant.” In almost every case, the language sounds absolute and final, but the actual fulfillment is real military defeat, political collapse, and long-term decline and not a sterile, empty landscape.

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saarnok · 5/26/2026, 12:29:08 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 5/26/2026, 1:43:14 AM · permalink

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saarnok · 5/26/2026, 2:09:34 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 5/27/2026, 3:51:16 AM · permalink

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saarnok · 5/27/2026, 11:58:03 PM · permalink

Oh, we're just beginning to have fun.  
  
Let us go back to the beginning. This is a prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would be compensated for his failure to fulfill the prophecy that he would eradicate Tyre by being given Egypt in payment for his decade and a half of resources wasted vainly trying to defeat Tyre.  
  
That didn't happen. None of it happened. Nothing. Not one iota of the prophecy was fulfilled, unless as apparently you conceive that even the slightest degree of incursion into Egypt resulting in no desolation, no plundering, no conquest, such a slight impact that Egyptian history doesn't even record it, but only a fragment of a record of some small incursion into Egypt is recorded on Babylonian stele exists to confirm that there was ever ANY conflict between the civilizations.  
  
What's at issue here is what you actually believe in.  
  
Is it a belief in a creator god who set everything in motion? Or is it a belief in a text generated by people with their political and philosophical horses in the race?  
  
Obviously, it is the latter.  
  
See, the thing is, I don't consider innate dishonesty such as you are compelled to practice as being equivalent to personal dishonesty where someone is consciously being deceptive about their beliefs.  
  
I can't trust Taj, because his religion incorporates deception as a tactic. Christianity doesn't do that. A sin against man is a sin against God in your estimation.  
  
What is unfortunate is your lack of understanding that you're defending, burdening yourself with the ideas that someone 2-2.5 thousand years ago believed were worth promoting for whatever reasons they had at the time.  
  
Consequently, you'll defend the book with no consideration for the sin of predendulation you're engaged in.  
  
It is historically certain that Nebuchadnezzar did not defeat Tyre, did not defeat Egypt, did not plunder those civilizations and did not demonstrate that "God" was "The Lord".  
  
It's simply absurd to claim otherwise.  
  
But, here you are; loyal to the idea, being "true" to that which you actually worship: Some pieces of paper.  
  
I know I can break you. I know how to do it with 100% certainty.  
  
I've consciously chosen not to do so. It's a decision I've made.  
  
And, I get that you think my statement is pure hubris. Thing is. I've done it before. I've done it with 100% success. I've done it to people who were world famous for their advocacy of your position. I know why it works. I know because I come from further inside that you do.  
  
I've watched in person as people died to preserve their "faith". I'm not being metaphorical.  
  
You have not seen the things I've seen. You haven't known the people who died rather than admit their faith was a pose. You haven't known the other people who gave up that pose when the chips were down only to turn to FUCKING ME and bitterly admit they were certain I would never choose the path they decided to take.  
  
And I was in the unenviable position of assuring them that until they had seen the choice I made in the same situation they really didn't know what I would choose in their stead.  
  
This is just a game to you. You don't really have any skin in the game. You don't have loved ones who will live or die according to what you believe.  
  
That's what I grew up with. Life or death.  
  
And the day I realized I didn't need to carry the burden of defending the Bible is one of the most astonishingly wonderful days of my life.  
  
I don't need to worry about demonstrating a lack of faith by going to a doctor when I'm dying. I get to realize on my own that I'm going to die regardless and there's no reason to toss aside my children's inheritance for the promise of a year or two of life.  
  
You really don't get how little responsibility I grant you for your pose. Your position. It's a convenience that's never tested.  
  
You've never been in the position of thinking you probably won't wake up if you fall asleep. Never chose to go to work on what you thought might well be the last day of your life. Never even made the choice to lie in bed with a broken leg rather than get medical care because your pain shouldn't mean buying a doctor a new Porsche, let alone because suffering a broken leg is just your lot that God's meted to you.  
  
I've lived the ends of my brothers and parents lives. Held them in my arms as they breathed their last. Not a doctor in sight. No hospital. No emt. Just the coroner after the fact.  
  
Because they couldn't break the pose.  
  
You feel like you're being persecuted.  
  
Any of your friends go to jail for a year or more because their Christian beliefs wouldn't let them comply? I know a few. Several in fact. Half a dozen or more.  
  
Know anyone who died of skin cancer eating their faces off and refusing medical care because ti wasn't God's will? I'm up to three that I know of for certain.  
  
You think you're dealing with someone who can't understand you.  
  
It's the opposite. I not only understand you, I understand the people you can't understand. I understand the people you'd probably like to pretend you are.  
  
And, I like you. I think you're a fine fellow.  
  
And... I know how to break you.  
  
I fucking guarantee it. I know how to break you all the way to the core of your belief.  
  
And, I'm choosing not to do so.  
  
So, you choose not to admit that the prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar conquering Egypt in payment for failing to conquer Tyre which he was also prophesied to do is obviously false. Not my problem.  
  
It's yours.

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sonatime · 5/29/2026, 1:50:37 AM · permalink

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saarnok · 5/29/2026, 2:23:47 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 5/29/2026, 2:35:40 AM · permalink

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saarnok · 5/29/2026, 4:17:31 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 5/30/2026, 2:20:58 AM · permalink

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sonatime · 5/23/2026, 8:16:09 AM · permalink

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saarnok · 5/24/2026, 7:51:23 PM · permalink

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