Comment on Gnosticism - Would Jesus be considered Gnostic or Christian? by sonatime on 2/2/2026 (111125) - freethinkers

sonatime · 2/5/2026, 1:49:23 AM · permalink

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braven · 2/5/2026, 5:48:15 PM · permalink

*I'm skipping the bush beating and going straight for the spanking:)*  
  
You seem like a reasonable enough person...no need to spank yourself on these....all good.  
I thought that was just the Catholic extremists....flagellation and all...please not you, too.🤣  
However, I would suggest using a different set of mixed metaphors when presenting your argument to follow.  
*bush beating....effeminate metaphor*  
*spanking ...infantilization metaphor*  
  
And with Christian teachings....often prone to be highly effeminate and mostly infantilizing....you can just be a straight up guy/man....say what you mean....done and dusted.  All good. 😅   
If not for humor....we will fail.  Something like that.  
  
Okay....that being said....wtf?🤣  
I have no idea where you are coming from on this.  
I admitted....100 percent to not believing the Gnostic teachings....right up there with 100 percent not believing the Bible's teachings.  
I don't have to believe those things....I am okay with not knowing certain things.  
I don't need to lie to myself, or others, about things I have no *Gnosis of.*...something like that....yes? 😅  
  
I said in the last post, that you were making good points...all.  
And you are making good points here....aside from the snide derisions on the patterns that you are want to denigrate.  odd stuff.  But all good.  
  
*I'm guessing you believe the Gnostic stuff, mostly uncovered in texts from the 2nd–3rd centuries AD, way later than the New Testament writings, as the real truth, while the Bible's sources are tainted*
  
There is no reason for you to guess that....I do not believe that.  Period.  
I appreciate that giants  went before us....left patterns....and died.  
I respect that....and hope to uncover patterns that will help mankind now and into the future.  If those patterns work for me....I will start to believe them.  If they don't work for me...I don't believe them.  
That is how a 'good belief' system should be 'earned'....by *embodied knowledge* of the pattern.  Something like that.  
  
I appreciate and have appreciated our 'sparring matches'....not spanking sessions.....yes?  
Man up?   
You could say that....if I were negligent in my patterning....if I were being lazy or incompetent....hey....Man Up.     
We make each other warriors for truth, by upholding truth...not bringing each other down.  
Thank you for the insights...as always....greatly appreciated.  
  
Maranatha Brother Sonatime😇

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sonatime · 2/6/2026, 4:38:10 AM · permalink

I skim when I read, and I will reread the thread... once I post my not so objective take again:) The thread is/was too cordial, like bland congee soup, that was becoming lukewarm so I took it upon myself to light some fire underneath it:) The thread can handle it, I am only one person with a repetitive opinion/point of view.   
  
Humor is my flaw/weakness when topics call for a serious discussion. But, am I really at fault for not remembering what you might have chosen or discarded from the religious buffets?:)  
Obviously I don't mind being corrected. Believe it or not, I do my best to understand what you say, and if memory lets me down maybe it's partly due to an ever elusive belief system that slithers between adopting/reacting and or reinterpreting words/meanings?:) Who am I to keep up with knowledge that is hidden from me?:)  
  
I was looking for new angles to the discussion that maybe others haven't thought of, and to introduce some friction and introspection... it is what keeps my mind busy.  
  
Could blood consumption or cannibalism have functioned as some ancient "bridge" to the spirits, maybe function as the original version of psychedelics? It wasn't the most conclusive dive...  
The Bible is clear on blood's sanctity - "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11). It's God's domain, reserved for atonement. New Testament clarifies this again for Gentiles in Acts 15:20/29: abstain from blood and from "things strangled" (improperly killed animals where blood stays in the meat). So this might be more than just hygiene or obedience but a boundary against "fellowship with devils" (1 Cor 10:20), where blood rituals fed spirits or induced trance-like highs for contact/possession.  
  
1 Corinthians 10:20 NIV  
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.    
  
Historically, Aztec priests drank/offered blood to nourish gods and gain divine power; shamanic traditions use blood in rites for ancestor communion or visionary states (adrenaline/endorphin rush mimicking entheogenic effects without plants). There is something there that could be considered a "tech" for transcendence by ingesting life force to bridge human/spirit lines. While in our modern pop culture times one can dive into the tragedies of pizzagate, adrenochrome and spirit cooking:(  
  
Maranatha Brother Braven:)

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thoughtcriminal_1984 · 2/6/2026, 4:51:17 AM · permalink

How does this...   
  
"The Bible is clear on blood's sanctity - "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11). It's God's domain, reserved for atonement. New Testament clarifies this again for Gentiles in Acts 15:20/29: abstain from blood and from "things strangled" (improperly killed animals where blood stays in the meat). So this might be more than just hygiene or obedience but a boundary against "fellowship with devils" (1 Cor 10:20), where blood rituals fed spirits or induced trance-like highs for contact/possession.1 Corinthians 10:20 NIV  
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.  
Historically, Aztec priests drank/offered blood to nourish gods and gain divine power; shamanic traditions use blood in rites for ancestor communion or visionary states (adrenaline/endorphin rush mimicking entheogenic effects without plants). There is something there that could be considered a "tech" for transcendence by ingesting life force to bridge human/spirit lines. While in our modern pop culture times one can dive into the tragedies of pizzagate, adrenochrome and spirit cooking:("  
  
Square with this?  
  
"1\. Transubstantiation (The Core Belief)

Catholics believe in transubstantiation, meaning that during the Eucharistic prayer at Mass, the bread and wine *actually* become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

-   Appearance vs. Reality: While they still look, taste, and smell like bread and wine (outward characteristics), their inner substance changes entirely.
-   The Eucharist: The "biscuit" is a round, unleavened, and thin wafer (host) made of wheat flour and water.
-   The Wine: The wine must be natural, made from grapes, and is typically mixed with a tiny drop of water, symbolizing the union of divinity and humanity.

2\. The Ritual in Mass

-   Offertory: The bread and wine are brought to the altar by representatives of the people, symbolizing the offering of their lives and work.
-   Consecration: The priest, acting *in persona Christi* (in the person of Christ), invokes the Holy Spirit to transform the gifts.
-   Communion: The faithful receive the consecrated host (and often wine) as spiritual nourishment.
-   "Small Cracker" Usage: The use of a simple, thin wafer (host) became standard for ease of handling, reverence, and to avoid particles of the body of Christ from falling, ensuring every crumb is treated with sacredness.

3\. Key Differences from Other Traditions

-   No Substitutes: The Catholic Church holds that only true wheaten bread and natural grape wine are valid for the Eucharist.
-   Real Presence: Unlike many Protestant denominations that view this as a symbolic memorial, Catholics believe in the *literal, substantial* presence of Christ.
-   Who May Receive: Only baptized Catholics who are in a state of grace (not conscious of mortal sin) and have prepared by fasting are permitted to receive Holy Communion.

4\. Special Blessing (St. John's Wine)

While not part of the daily Mass, there is a specific, traditional devotion involving the blessing of wine on the feast of St. John the Apostle (Dec 27), known as "St. John's Love" or "St. John's Blessing of Wine," which is then drank in his honor. "

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sonatime · 2/6/2026, 11:16:51 AM · permalink

I'm not an expert on Catholic Church doctrines or traditions, but I can share what I see in the Bible on this topic  
  
1\. The Real Presence in the Eucharist / Communion  
  
Catholics teach transubstantiation: Bread and wine actually become Jesus' body and blood, substance changes, but looks/tastes the same.  
  
They point to verses like:John 6:53–56 — Jesus says, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you... My flesh is true food, my blood is true drink."  
Matthew 26:26–28 / Mark 14:22–24 / Luke 22:19–20 / 1 Corinthians 11:23–26 — At the Last Supper, Jesus says, "This is my body... This is my blood."  
  
Biblical:  
These words can be understood symbolically or as a spiritual reality, like when Jesus says "I am the door" (John 10:9) or "I am the vine" (John 15:1). Not literal doors or vines.  
  
In John 6:63, Jesus adds: "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." This suggests spiritual meaning, not physical eating of flesh.  
  
1 Corinthians 11:26–29 warns about unworthy eating/drinking, but calls it "proclaiming the Lord's death" - a memorial/symbol of the once-for-all sacrifice, Hebrews 10:10–14 says Christ's sacrifice was once, not repeated.  
  
No core doctrine requires believing the elements literally transform. Many see it as a memorial meal remembering Jesus' death.  
  
2\. The "Small Cracker"and Wine  
  
Catholics use unleavened wheat wafers and grape wine, no substitutes allowed.  
This comes from tradition and Last Supper, unleavened bread at Passover, but the Bible doesn't mandate exact form -  just "bread" and "cup" and "fruit of the vine."  
  
Biblical:  
Scripture focuses on the meaning, remembrance, proclamation, not strict recipe rules - 1 Cor. 11:23–26.  
  
3\. Who Can Receive Communion  
  
Catholics: Only baptized Catholics in state of grace.  
  
Biblical: 1 Corinthians 11:28–29 says examine yourself, anyone who believes and discerns the meaning can participate. No mention of only certain church members or confession first.  
  
4\. St. John's Wine Blessing...  
  
Bible: There is no direct Bible verse commands or description of this. It's a later custom, not something Scripture requires. Wine in Bible often symbolizes joy/blessing   
Psalm 104:15 NIV   
wine that gladdens human hearts,  
oil to make their faces shine,  
and bread that sustains their hearts.

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thoughtcriminal_1984 · 2/6/2026, 3:53:09 PM · permalink

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sonatime · 2/6/2026, 9:03:56 PM · permalink

Personally, those biblical passages never stumbled me much, maybe I didn't reflect deeply on them when I was younger. Even if a part feels problematic at first, it can easily lead to curiosity and to studying the whole passage and the Bible, rather than just fault-finding.  
  
Do people know what they're doing by going along or interpreting or judging? That is their responsibility, just as one can choose to look for understanding, reflect or vent frustrations. It's a personal choice.  
  
In a world full of lies, human traditions, doctrines of men, and rebellious spirits, it's a constant reminder not to be easily led astray or gatekept, the blind leading the blind.  
  
Christianity isn't about perfect rituals or flawless understanding from day one. It's about a personal relationship with God through faith, producing the fruit of the Spirit, and taking personal responsibility. That's where the real life Christianity and I think most carry this awareness.   
  
For general audience:  
The world is in constant conflict and so are we. Life comes down to personal effort: taking in knowledge and discerning truth, seeking real relationship with God, and letting faith produce action.  
  
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you…" Phil 2:12–13  
"Each one should carry their own load" Gal 6:5  
Parable of the talents (Matt 25): we're accountable for what we do with what we've been given  
  
 "test everything; hold fast what is good" (1 Thess 5:21) and "be wise as serpents and innocent as doves" (Matt 10:16)  
"The heart is deceitful above all things" (Jer 17:9) - even our own feelings need testing  
Acts 17:11 NIV - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.  
  
Relationship: "This is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3)  
Faith: "Without faith it is impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6).    
Actions/fruit: "Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (James 2:17)  
fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22–23)

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